SurveyMonkey's Leela Srinivasan on Powering the Curious

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Leela Srinivasan

It began by looking at the data, as you might imagine. So just looking at the most common use cases for our technology. So as even as a SurveyMonkey self-serve subscriber, we give you access to templates where you can, you know, you can use the tool for various different. Yeah. Where you need basically everything from you know soccer moms doing their their poll on t shirt sizes to you know the biggest questions that organizations should be asking of their employees, of their customers, of their future customers.

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Leela Srinivasan

And so it was very clear in looking at the questions that were being asked, that the two most common sets of use case were number one around customers. So NPS, for example, which led to the development of a product called six. And then the second thing was around employees. And of course, given, you know, we're at full employment, companies really need to be understanding how their employees feel.

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Patrick Campbell

From profit well recur its protect the hustle a show about those in the trenches actually.

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Neel Desai

Doing the work.

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Patrick Campbell

I'm Patrick Campbell.

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Neel Desai

And I'm the other side. And on today's show how Leila Srinivasan powerfully curious at.

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Patrick Campbell

SurveyMonkey as the first chief marketing officer at the survey.

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Neel Desai

Software type.

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Patrick Campbell

Talking about surveys now they talk about some surveys that don't even fake your ear or discuss they're you're forcing surveys here and you like surveys, not feedback.

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Neel Desai

I like surveys. I hate taking bad surveys.

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Patrick Campbell

Yeah, everyone hates taking bad surveys. But thankfully, not only because of our guests company, but also because of what's happened in the market. We're heading into a world where bad surveys and simply just bad elements of getting feedback are going to the wayside.

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Neel Desai

I think you're right slowly, but I think you're right. I have like 50 bucks an Amazon gift card credit from taking surveys of enterprise class from last week.

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Patrick Campbell

That's awesome. Very cool. All about that money email. That's what I love about it. Yeah. But our guest today, Leila, the CMO of SurveyMonkey, not only has a storied career in the world of surveys, obviously through SurveyMonkey, but also in marketing.

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Neel Desai

Yeah, she's been a marketing leader for a while now. Being a senior marketer at LinkedIn in the early days and most recently the CMO of Lever before joining SurveyMonkey.

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Patrick Campbell

Yeah, and she was there prior to the IPO, which was a couple years ago now, I believe at least two or so years ago and has basically been, you know, dealing with a multifaceted team that not only has multiple products, but also has multiple personas for those multiple products and multiple value propositions for those personas, for those multiple products.

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Neel Desai

Not easy.

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Patrick Campbell

So it's a pretty tough problem, especially when you're a public company. But we're also going to learn her spirit animal today.

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Neel Desai

She's going to tell us that.

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Patrick Campbell

She's well, she's done. She's sort of going to tell us she's going to give us permission to relay a couple of funny anecdotes about a really, really big award that she won at LinkedIn, as well as a Spirit animal moniker that she received after being on a big panel at one of the Glassdoor conferences. But to kind of explain what in the world that all just meant.

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Patrick Campbell

Let's jump right into interviewing Lila here and have her tell us the story.

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Patrick Campbell

You won the Reid Hoffman Bean Bag Award. Yes. What is that award and what's the story behind that?

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Leela Srinivasan

Well, let me think. This must have been in about 2012, 2013, tremendous individual, but decided that he was going to acknowledge people across the organization who exhibited LinkedIn's values and were basically culture carriers for the organization. And, you know, to this day, I still when I went to LinkedIn, I definitely drank the Kool-Aid. I spent to have.

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Patrick Campbell

Heard and say that.

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Leela Srinivasan

I still hold the organization very high regard and have a lot of friends that still work there. And so a little known fact about me, Arlington was I actually worked remotely for three and a half years of my four and a half years there, and that was quite unusual. I was fortunate to be grandfathered into an abnormal arrangement and it continued to work well.

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Leela Srinivasan

But I think what made it work well for me was I was so passionate about what I was doing that I people were continually surprised when I came back to campus that I didn't actually live and work in Mountain View or in San Francisco. Oh, that's wild. That's so I definitely I feel like I earned that one because I really did internalize the mission, the vision, the values and the culture.

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Leela Srinivasan

And so I was one of the first crop of folks that literally got this giant bean bag in LinkedIn, blue and white colors with the different values, kind of like spread across it.

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Patrick Campbell

As in your home office at the time, it.

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Leela Srinivasan

Wasn't my whole life. I sounded.

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Patrick Campbell

Awesome. So on your Twitter profile, you've said that you were once described as a unicorn in a sea of raccoons.

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Leela Srinivasan

Isn't that priceless?

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Patrick Campbell

I have what I.

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Patrick Campbell

Think it is, but I don't know what it means, so I don't know to go.

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Patrick Campbell

Oh, that's really insightful. Aw, that's really weird. Know? Well, what is what is like about.

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Leela Srinivasan

It's a mixture of both. So this was on the mainstage at the Glassdoor summit in I think it was 2016. I was on a panel that was a discussion around employer brand, which you know, again, to to the conversation around transparency in the web. It's never been more important to think about how you're perceived as a place to work.

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Leela Srinivasan

So I was on this panel with some some very insightful folks. And it wasn't just any panel, though. It was a panel that was an improv panel.

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Neel Desai

So it was.

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Leela Srinivasan

A giant goldfish bowl of random questions that related to employer branding somehow. And so the moderator, William, tinkered with Plug one out and he'd called call us on these questions. And so so I got involved in a very spirited debate around the importance of employer brand through the marketing lens and the fact that CMO's and marketing leaders should be sticking really close to their heads of talent, heads of recruiting, who typically are, you know, thinking more about employer brand because in this day and age and I think this is especially true in B2B marketing, it's very hard to to dissect a brand and you can't really put employer brand aside.

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Leela Srinivasan

So you've got corporate brand and employer brand. They have to they have to flow from one to the other. And if you have a really weak employer brand, if you're seen as a bit, you're perceived negatively as a place to work, that's actually going to impact our customers, investors, future employees. Think about you. So I think the the impact of that does spill through to your overall marketing efforts.

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Leela Srinivasan

So my point was simply that as CEO, I can't help but be overly focused on employer brand because it impacts our entire business, which earned me sort of this label that I was a unicorn in the Sea of Raccoons, which doesn't speak very highly of other marketers, but I think it was meant to be a compliment. But I got it.

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Leela Srinivasan

And not everyone in marketing was, you know.

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Patrick Campbell

And I don't know what to say about the unicorn raccoon message. I'm not sure I entirely get it, but if there's one thing I get by those two anecdotes is that Lila is intense and committed. I think that she's one of those, you know, unicorns, actually, when it comes to actually hiring a senior marketing leader, because oftentimes senior marketing leaders are some of the hardest people to find, because there's so many people who are, quote unquote, marketers, but they're not truly marketing leaders when it comes to actually running an organization, understanding all of the different idiosyncrasies of marketing, and then ultimately pushing a company forward when it comes to growth.

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Neel Desai

Yeah.

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Patrick Campbell

That that's all that I got.

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Neel Desai

No, no. I mean, I just.

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Patrick Campbell

Made an eloquent point, and that is that you got.

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Neel Desai

No, but I think it's listen, the thing with Lila, I think it's really evident by her career, right? Whether it's Ben or SurveyMonkey, I mean, she's been leading teams and companies of all different sizes, constantly evolving, even SurveyMonkey today, it's got to take a special person to be able to not only execute on the day to day to day, but also plan for the next five, ten, 15 years, especially.

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Patrick Campbell

And imagine jumping into a company like SurveyMonkey that's 19, 20 years old and has been there all around. She was there before they went public through going public, which is just an experience in and of itself, and.

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Neel Desai

Their first CMO.

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Patrick Campbell

And and their first CMO, which is pretty wild. I think she's going to tell us a little bit more in this next clip, but they're going to set this up. I think we have to understand where SurveyMonkey is and just how hard of a marketing problem and just how truly a unicorn Lila is to basically be tackling not only a multiproduct problem, but a multiple value proposition and a multi persona problem.

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Patrick Campbell

Like is the world of survey.

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Patrick Campbell

How do you pick? All right, this is going to be for user experience. This is going to be for h.r. This is going to be for this. Like, what was that like process?

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Leela Srinivasan

Like if began by looking at the data, as you might imagine. So just looking at the most common use cases for our technology. So as even as a survey monkey self-serve subscriber, we give you access to templates where you can, you know, you can use the tool for various different Yeah, whatever you need. Basically it's everything from you know soccer moms doing their their pull on t shirt sizes to you know, the biggest questions that organizations should be asking of their employees, of their customers, of their future customers.

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Leela Srinivasan

And so it was very clear in looking at the questions that were being asked that the two most common sets of use case were number one around customers. So NPS, for example, which led to the development of a product called six. And then the second thing was around employees. And of course, given, you know, where full employment companies really need to be understanding how their employees feel.

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Leela Srinivasan

And so that led to the birth of a solution called Engage.

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Patrick Campbell

And was it something like you in a CMO role? It's going to be tough, like because it's like, okay, so we only have like one website, we have like maybe one blog, we have all this. So when you're thinking about channels and obviously from a sales and you come from a sales background, you know, it's a little bit different because you can like set up different like this sales team, that sales team.

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Patrick Campbell

But from a marketing side, like how do you balance like the multiproduct problem?

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Leela Srinivasan

Yeah, it's an excellent question. I mean, it's a little bit of what we faced at LinkedIn as well, where I worked in the Talent Solutions business for four and a half years. But we also had marketing solutions with sales solutions. We had our core consumer business. So it's sort of a similar challenge here. And so I think it is about I mean, the core of our business remains our survey platform and, you know, surveys, whether they're being used in sort of an enterprise context where you want things like single sign on, for example, and the ability to reassign accounts that you own.

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Leela Srinivasan

So that's that will remain the core of our business. And as our website continues to evolve over time, that will still be front and center. But I think it's about gradually exposing people to different solutions, different use cases, different ways in which people are leveraging our technology for for more specialized reasons, and then developing alongside the course site a set of additional web properties that allow you to go deep on what it means to really leverage, operationalize, see X and customer satisfaction and success throughout your organization and how we can help with that.

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Patrick Campbell

Yeah, that's really cool because it's kind of the the land we call it the hub and spoke model. And what it basically means is like you have this hub, which is exactly how you describe anyone can come in from a soccer mom to a Fortune 500 CIO, and both of them can basically get their services done for whatever he or she needs.

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Patrick Campbell

And then when you look at like the expansion across an organization, are you guys currently like, I know the products are like more recent coming to market, the more niche products like are you guys already thinking about, hey, you know, John or Jane, you're using this like introduce me to, you know, your h.R. Person or introduce me to your UX researcher.

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Patrick Campbell

Like, how is that process working or how is it envisioned? You know, if it's not quite there yet?

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Leela Srinivasan

Yeah, I think that's exactly I mean, that's a big thrust of what we're looking at right now. So I think there's there are two types of land and expand, if you will. One is just that our core service tool can can proliferate throughout an organization because it's often being used in many different ways.

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Patrick Campbell

And there's probably growth there because they just use more, more users, all these other things that you don't even necessarily need the niche products.

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Leela Srinivasan

But that's right, a little bit of super flexible. And so whether you are serving internally or externally, if it's company level data that you're that you're aggregating, at some point, you actually want that to belong to the company. So similarly to when I worked at LinkedIn, you know, one of the reasons somebody would Billington recruiter over just letting the recruiters use individual subscriptions was when the recruiter left the building.

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Leela Srinivasan

So did that account right and all the information, all the relationships that were built within it. And so I think similarly when you're using service technology on behalf of your organization, if you just have an individual subscription while that belongs to you and even if it's even if you've paid for it, paid for it with a company credit card, it's in your name.

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Leela Srinivasan

And so, you know, the data is yours, right? And so that's a that's a you know, I think there are reasons to make sure that you put your best foot forward from a data perspective as well. So there's that. But then, yes, also in addition, I think we are starting to see situations where companies I mean, they know SurveyMonkey, they trust us as they're exposed to our solutions.

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Leela Srinivasan

It's easy for them to say, Oh yeah, well, actually we should probably double down on six and let you know. What do you have for them?

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Patrick Campbell

And what I find fascinating about SurveyMonkey and this happens to a lot of different companies, like All Roads Lead to just expanding beyond just self-serve or beyond just enterprise. It becomes basically this multifaceted approach where you have to have alignment not only in multiproduct. We're seeing that more and more with HubSpot, Zendesk, Salesforce at all, but you also need to be multi customer, you need to go after SMB need, you have to have a lot of different flavors of SMB and then also go enterprise at some particular point.

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Patrick Campbell

And this is what I think is very, very hard when it comes to a marketing team and just a company in general, because if you think of all that surface area that you have to have landing pages for, have product marketing for, like how you structure your team becomes really, really important because your team is ultimately going to be the thing or the the let me say this more eloquently that the basically the fulcrum through which you're going to be able to go after all of these different fronts that might be in your business.

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Neel Desai

And I think just looking at the complexities that come, you take a salesforce, for example, right? The pricing in packaging required to address multiproduct and multi customer just gets extremely out of control really, really quickly. Right? So I think not only being proactive and playing offense with those things while switching your teams is is not easy.

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Patrick Campbell

Yeah. And when did you kind of take a step back? I think one of the thing that really helps SurveyMonkey kind of not have to have a CMO, you know, until this particular point or the past couple of years now, like before, right before they went public, was that the hub and spoke model works really, really well, especially in a rather nascent market.

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Patrick Campbell

So when SurveyMonkey started there was, you know, there was survey software, but it was typically very clunky, very kind of academic, very enterprise looking. And not that it was enterprise, but it was just, you know, very like clunky as as I kind of said. But SurveyMonkey came out and they made it very elegant, very easy. They may not have agreed, you know, 19 years ago versus what they have today, but it was one of those things where they were able to build this hub of basically this product, which was core surveys.

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Patrick Campbell

Right. And I think that allowed people to basically just associate themselves with that research and associate themselves with with basically collecting information and collecting data. And they were able to scale that association through usage. And I'm sure they had problems when it came to episodic usage versus, you know, usage that was happening consistently. But now they're able to kind of right at the right time, Right.

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Patrick Campbell

When Qualtrics has hired some of these other survey companies are hot, they're able to kind of exploit in the best sense of the word these different kind of spokes of different types of people. And I think that's a really, really big lesson for folks to learn, which is sometimes it's okay to not necessarily have that hypergrowth at a particular point.

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Patrick Campbell

If you're building that particular hub that's going to pay off into the long term.

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Neel Desai

Sure. I mean, I think everyone from a Fortune 500 company to back in college when I was writing surveys for a school project. Right. I think there's so many personas that I think is using SurveyMonkey that they can benefit from sort of like that compounding effect over the years.

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Patrick Campbell

Yeah, 100%. And this goes back to the team point that you were making we were talking about which I think is where we want to dig a little bit deeper with Lila, because ultimately it's really hard to go after that hub and all of those spokes with all of the different products that SurveyMonkey has and all the different constituencies that SurveyMonkey goes after.

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Patrick Campbell

And so let's learn a little bit more from Lila about structuring a marketing team and ultimately structuring a team to go after all of these different opportunities that you may have and prioritize them in the right direction.

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Patrick Campbell

And then when you think about like for like a structure organization, you know, you're the first CMO at SurveyMonkey, which is hard to believe given, you know.

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Leela Srinivasan

It's 16 years, 19 years, almost 19.

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Patrick Campbell

Decades. Yeah. And so not that you've been here, but that the organization has been around, but you've you've gone from you know, you were there early at LinkedIn, I think it was right around 500 employees. That's right there. And then you were there all the way through. I think it read through like 6500 employees. So it's like huge growth there.

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Patrick Campbell

You were the lead marketer and CMO over at Lever, and so you've kind of been in these organizations as they've evolved and as they gotten bigger coming into an organization that's like 750 people obviously has a lot of like viral growth built in. Like how do you think about structuring your team or your initiatives, Like when you're seeing this problem of like proliferating across organizations?

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Leela Srinivasan

Yeah, it's a great question. And it's the thing, if anything is keeping me up at night, it's probably that right now. So so we've been doing plenty of marketing, of course. I mean, we have a really strong set of marketers, but they hadn't been structured as a team. And I mean, this is one of the things I was thinking about in this notion of like protecting the hustle, right?

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Leela Srinivasan

As organizations scale and become more complex, it's it becomes harder and harder sometimes to stay in sync with one another, to keep people informed so that you can really collaborate seamlessly. So that that's one thing the the the antidote to that sometimes is having these massive meetings, which is just not not efficient at all for, you know, it, you're having these insanely expensive meetings and you're just slowing down your progress is something I'm trying to instill in my team is when you when you we can't all be in the meeting.

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Leela Srinivasan

So choose a subset of people that should be in the meeting. And their job then should be to proactively come out and kind of inform their their colleagues. So so definitely trying to, trying to structure in a way that helps us sort of retain our element of hustle and stay lean and stay agile from an organizational perspective, because this push towards selling to businesses or B2B type solutions is relatively new, really doubling down on a team to help kind of drive that far because I do think it's a different set of skills from our core business, which is a self-serve, you know, much more kind of online digital driven business is a different motion across

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Leela Srinivasan

a different skill set, different mindset, very different level of partnership with a sales team, for example.

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Patrick Campbell

So is our sales team.

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Leela Srinivasan

Yes.

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Patrick Campbell

Okay.

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Leela Srinivasan

Yes, there.

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Patrick Campbell

Is, because I was always curious because it was always I mean, I remember SurveyMonkey from long time ago. I don't want to age myself too much, but it was like, you know, just the self-serve probably. I ran a survey, of course, you SurveyMonkey. Right? And then now we're an organization. We send a ton of surveys. I don't know how much you know about our product, but it's survey based and it's one of those things where we're using SurveyMonkey and we're using like a bunch of different tools.

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Patrick Campbell

But it's really kind of fascinating to kind of see like how important like that research actually is and to back up a second before maybe going down that rabbit hole. Like are you when you look at like coming into Lever or, you know, being early at LinkedIn or now coming in at 750 and like growing from there, what's point which one's been harder or which one's been more thrilling?

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Patrick Campbell

Or maybe not. That's not an unfair question.

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Leela Srinivasan

Oh, they're all thrilling. Come on and do that to me.

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Patrick Campbell

Which one's a little bit harder? Like, say.

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Leela Srinivasan

Well, I think there are different challenges with each of them. Right. So linked to in the primary, I mean, we were just doing things that we had never done before that the organization had never done before, and at a pace that I probably didn't think was possible. You just and I think that the secret there is being ruthlessly focused on your top priorities.

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Leela Srinivasan

And so I actually literally had a whiteboard next to my desk that had the three things that I needed to do in the first half of the year. And they were big projects. You know, one was launching, you know, our first subscription product product that was focused on recruiters, who's our target audience. One was like a big pricing overhaul and so forth.

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Leela Srinivasan

So each one was a big rock. But I found that when your team is really small, you just get pulled in a million directions. And so if I had those things written down beside my desk at some point in the day, whenever I got back to my desk, probably, you know, six or seven at night, it'd be like, Oh, I haven't done anything to move that rock forward.

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Leela Srinivasan

Let me think about let me prioritize that one for tomorrow. So I think, you know, ruthless prioritization was kind of the key there. So it was challenging, but just because of the lack of bandwidth and so many opportunities. And I think that's probably true in business today as a whole, where we're bombarded, the pace is accelerating and we only have limited time.

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Leela Srinivasan

So how do you prioritize your time? Lever was a fun, different challenge, and I think you can contrast the brand recognition of LinkedIn and of a SurveyMonkey with Lever. And one of the things that drew me to Lever was my the pull I feel from the talent talent industry. I'm very drawn to talent as obviously the driver of businesses.

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Leela Srinivasan

But talent acquisition I think is just an underrated function.

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Patrick Campbell

Possibly hard is.

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Leela Srinivasan

Impossibly hard, right? And I over the years I've become somewhat of a sort of standard bearer for the, you know, the talent acquisition leader because I really think they do incredibly important work. So there was there was that. But also the fact that the space that lever operates in is sort of the applicant tracking system. CRM space is incredibly crowded.

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Leela Srinivasan

And when I went there, I actually talked to a couple of customers on the way and I talked to a couple of analysts on the way, and the customers were just raving evangelists about this incredible product. The analysts were like, Lapper, is it lever or lever? We're not sure. We've we've heard of it. We don't know what it does because no one's shown us.

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Leela Srinivasan

And so there was just this incredible gap in awareness in the outside world, unless you were using the tool, it was like a best kept.

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Patrick Campbell

Secret, which is kind of a great role for a marketer.

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Leela Srinivasan

It's fantastic when you have that customer evangelism underpinning it, which we did then, there was clearly a huge opportunity there. So the challenge there was operating in the super crowded space with against much bigger competitors, but trying to carve out something that felt unique in terms of voice and tone and really mobilizing this legion of super loyal raving customers so that was a different sort of challenge just because of our size, but really fun one.

00;21;27;12 - 00;21;47;00

Leela Srinivasan

And you know, building from scratch, there is an element of that that's easier because you can craft the team, the team that you want to basically. And then coming here, I think, I mean, this is months close of months to for me. So, so, you know, pick me again in three months and I have a different answer. But I think it's the challenge of getting up to speed on a business that is more mature and much more complex.

00;21;47;08 - 00;22;08;25

Leela Srinivasan

Yeah, I mean, we have, you know, six or seven different products, for example, with lots of different target audiences that we talk to. So I sort of get my arms around that and making sure that we do things in a smart way so that we're not just off operating in silos. We're really thinking in a concerted manner about our customers and what they might like to learn about how SurveyMonkey can help them.

00;22;08;25 - 00;22;09;04

Leela Srinivasan

Well.

00;22;10;02 - 00;22;35;14

Patrick Campbell

Change is hard. Yeah, that's I mean, that's and that's what makes Leila so fascinating and such, you know, such a unicorn. And there's nothing necessarily that she's talking about when it comes to scaling a team, prioritizing that we probably haven't heard before. But that's what makes wisdom. Wisdom is that it's really, really hard to basically commit to that wisdom, and it's really easy to kind of just kind of go off and, you know, not prioritize, not be disciplined.

00;22;36;04 - 00;22;46;13

Neel Desai

Etc., especially because it's like we're finding this out here. The traits and skills that brought us to this point aren't the ones that are going to take us to the next level, right? So you have to constantly be learning and evolving over the years.

00;22;46;13 - 00;23;18;28

Patrick Campbell

Yeah, I'm describing that at least this year, 20, 20, 2020 is the year that I go from being a founder to being a CEO. That's really kind of how I'm thinking about life right now, just because I think it's one of those things like when when Leila talks about prioritization, when she talks about kind of scaling teams, but she talks about the difference between, you know, when she was, you know, an early team at LinkedIn or really team at Lever going to 750 now thousand people plus, you know, over at SurveyMonkey, it is those executive things that that changes and that basically scales in each of those particular parts of a company and things like

00;23;18;28 - 00;23;32;23

Patrick Campbell

prioritization, things like not being reactive. These things don't go away and they're very, very helpful. Every single stage. I think that's where that's where Leila has has been really, really successful. And that's something that we can take take away from her. Her learnings today.

00;23;33;06 - 00;23;38;12

Neel Desai

What do you think is the most challenging part of that evolution? Is it is it getting the team around you?

00;23;38;12 - 00;23;57;03

Patrick Campbell

Is it the know It's just a product, It's just admitting it? Yeah, You know, we didn't get into the struggles as much in this particular episode, but I think that, you know, I hope that she was someone who just naturally knew, you know, you have to give things up and you can't worry about the fallout of giving things up and things like that.

00;23;57;03 - 00;24;23;01

Patrick Campbell

But that's a that's a I'm sure you know, that that's something that she struggle with, at least on some level, because it's so difficult. Right. It's so difficult to be like, well, this made me successful here. And if you don't have a good team around you, if you don't have some sort of metrics or some sort of drive to always be getting better, it's really, really difficult to kind of realize in a minute to yourself because ego tells us, especially as an executive, ego tells us that we're always right because that's what made a successful.

00;24;23;01 - 00;24;34;25

Patrick Campbell

That's what brought us here. And now for me, I'm just an incredibly insecure person. So I've had like else, you know, basically kind of push me into this, you know, constant precipice between being like, you're not good enough. No, you are good enough. And like so on and so forth.

00;24;34;27 - 00;24;41;03

Neel Desai

You're right. I think that that's why alignment at this stage becomes even more important, right, as you sort of remove yourself from the trenches.

00;24;41;10 - 00;25;00;13

Patrick Campbell

Yeah. And I think one thing that Leila can actually, you know, teach us a lot about and in SurveyMonkey in general and this goes into, you know, their core mission of you know, powering the curious is is really being curious about, you know, the data or the information that's out there. And one of the biggest fulcrum that exists for surveys.

00;25;00;13 - 00;25;17;22

Patrick Campbell

Right? Yeah. And I think that what's kind of fascinating is everyone kind of doesn't like surveys. And my theory is and we've you know, it's a little unfair because we've sent, you know, 50 million of these things or more at this point for our price intelligently product is that we don't like surveys because we're terrible at sending surveys.

00;25;17;22 - 00;25;34;15

Patrick Campbell

But I also think it's because we don't necessarily need to, you know, really look to surveys to power our curiosity in the past because the answers were a little bit more obvious. But I think Leila can give us a little bit more insight on this when when she gets into, you know, why people don't send surveys as much as they should be.

00;25;34;24 - 00;25;41;15

Patrick Campbell

And ultimately, what makes a good survey.

00;25;41;15 - 00;25;58;03

Patrick Campbell

We meet a lot of people who are like surveys. Like why surveys? Right? And we meet a lot of people who are oh, it's just all going to be biased and all that type of stuff. Like when you meet those people and maybe you don't because you guys are the center of the universe. Like, what's your response to those types of types of folks?

00;25;58;03 - 00;26;30;10

Leela Srinivasan

I think the responses you open the if you if you still read a newspaper or if you open Flipboard for the day and look at what's going on in the world, the world is just rife with examples of companies not listening to their key stakeholders. So whether it's for example, I think United rolled out some crazy bonus scheme where it was like a lottery to get bonuses or whether it's, you know, some challenging ad that a company's run where it just feels tone deaf, it feels really flat and actually has the potential to backfire and cause negative sentiment towards that brand.

00;26;30;16 - 00;26;52;13

Leela Srinivasan

Right. That I mean, that it's everywhere, right? You look at, you know, what's going on inside organizations where employees are not feeling heard and so are running their own surveys to get that point across. Right. It's it's everywhere we look. And I think that sends a clear message to organizations that you have to be listening. You have to be thinking through the points of view that matter the most to you.

00;26;52;13 - 00;27;20;22

Leela Srinivasan

And typically, as I said, it's customers, it's employees, it's to core and sets of constituents who are essential to the company's success. Right. And so if you're not listening to that feedback, then I think you run the risk of really committing a faux pas. And that can be internal. And organizationally, if you're not aware of how employees feel and it can be externally and brand impacting if it's about launching campaigns or doing something else where, you know, you're just getting the wrong kind of attention, basically.

00;27;20;24 - 00;27;41;27

Patrick Campbell

Yeah, that we're just going to play that on loop because that that was really good. That was awesome. And when you're thinking about like, I mean, you've been in a number of different businesses throughout your career, so why weren't services prevalent, you know, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, like was it was it something where we didn't need to be because there was less information density, etc., or was it kind of there?

00;27;41;27 - 00;27;47;10

Patrick Campbell

But we just didn't see it because, you know, the people who are really good, it wasn't as much of a thing to evangelize.

00;27;47;17 - 00;27;58;00

Leela Srinivasan

You know, I'm not sure I will say I think the services have been there for a long time, but they've been pen and paper. And I still, you know, to this day, I still know events, people that rely on, you know, the.

00;27;58;00 - 00;28;01;08

Patrick Campbell

Old for this survey. Send me an email. Exactly.

00;28;01;08 - 00;28;17;14

Leela Srinivasan

Exactly. Or, you know, now one of our latest innovations is QR codes. So basically you're if you're giving a presentation at a conference, put the QR code into the presentation, anybody can, if you've got a new iPhone, can put up their iPhone and it will just take you automatically to that link. So it's super easy. It's never been easier to get feedback.

00;28;17;14 - 00;28;21;28

Patrick Campbell

Especially now that you don't have to download an app to get the QR code. You can just use your phone.

00;28;22;01 - 00;28;43;05

Leela Srinivasan

That's right. Exactly. Exactly. So so I think there's there's there's a very simple, simple technological advancement that's happened. So there's a technological advancement. But also, I think just the transparency of the world in which we live today, people have become more and more attuned to very real perspectives on brands, on companies, what they're like to work for, what their customer service is like.

00;28;43;05 - 00;29;07;25

Leela Srinivasan

Right? That information is out there already. So if you are not taking the step of being proactive in gathering that so that you can act on it before it becomes a problem, then I think, again, you know, you have you get what's coming to you. So so, you know, there's something about just the, you know, the transparency of a web driven world that I think has made service even more even more important.

00;29;07;25 - 00;29;10;22

Neel Desai

So, Patrick, are you going to tell me to better understand the customer?

00;29;11;18 - 00;29;40;01

Patrick Campbell

Are you making fun of me right now? No, you're making fun of me right now. No, I can feel it. No, I think that's I think that's an important I think that's an important aspect. But I think that what Lila is talking about is not just I understand your customer, but just understand that what you don't know. And I think that as I kind of alluded to before, it was really easy, you know, 20, even ten years ago to not really know, but just kind of guess in check when we were building products or just building teams because there weren't as many as opportunities.

00;29;40;01 - 00;30;01;08

Patrick Campbell

Like there were a lot of opportunities, right? But there weren't as many opportunities as are today. And this is why, you know, in, you know, the previous generation of building software, building subscription companies, everything was very, very focused on speed. So you had the birth of Agile Kanban, all these different things like, Hey, let's just get faster, let's just get more productive, hey, let's just hire more people, Let's just hire more people.

00;30;01;08 - 00;30;19;21

Patrick Campbell

Let's go really, really quick. Let's go really, really fast. And while that was definitely good advice, what ultimately ended up happening? It was, Oh, now everyone's going fast, now everyone's building quickly. Now we don't necessarily have an advantage of dev productivity, even if we continue to add people because, you know, building, building things is hard and growing teams are hard, right?

00;30;20;03 - 00;30;42;05

Patrick Campbell

It's all of a sudden we're now forced to be curious and we're forced to use tools that power the curious to basically help us understand. And I go back to what I said before. I think we we were terrible at receiving feedback because not because necessarily we didn't want the feedback, although that's definitely a psychological phenomenon. But we were terrible at, you know, gathering the feedback because we didn't need to.

00;30;42;05 - 00;30;55;01

Patrick Campbell

And I think that there's a lot of education to be had on how to get good feedback both, you know, kind of in a high fidelity way, like you and I talking, you know, across from one another or in a more scalable way and sending a customer survey.

00;30;55;04 - 00;31;24;14

Neel Desai

Yeah, I think as a product person it's tricky, right? Because on one hand features and product are becoming less and less different and important on the, on the bigger picture. But at the same time, those that do understand their customer at a deep level have tremendous advantage of building good product, right? So finding a balance between the empathetic high fidelity approach, you know, relative to surveys and whatnot, I guess it's being able to do both that skill, right?

00;31;24;14 - 00;31;45;07

Patrick Campbell

Yeah, Well, I think one huge misconception about surveys is that you automatically just listen to what the person said, right? Like, this is just the product of being in a republic or representative democracy, right? Sure. We think that, you know, votes should automatically mean what we do, which on some level is great, you know, from a country perspective.

00;31;45;07 - 00;32;08;15

Patrick Campbell

But on another level, it's one of those things where as a product person you have multiple different data points. You know, there's data points coming in from potentially a survey, there's data points coming in from what the markets, you know, happening. There's data coming in from how you ask the question and from whom you get the answers. And so I think it's one of those things where that's a huge excuse that people use not to collect the data, which is, well, you know, I don't know.

00;32;08;15 - 00;32;27;15

Patrick Campbell

I wouldn't want to listen to it. It's not going to be right. I'm you know, it's my job to make the decision. And the problem is, is it just doesn't work anymore like that. Now we're in a market where it's really, really important to at least understand the perspective of not only your customers, but also your team members, your company.

00;32;27;22 - 00;32;59;17

Patrick Campbell

And there's plenty of things, you know, we've we've had situations and thankfully not that many where, you know, we we had a Democratic vote on certain things. And, you know, we as as an executive team chose to go in a different direction. And we were thankfully very, very transparent and, you know, explain what was going on. But I think that's a really, really big misconception about surveys and things like that, which is you're not always making the decision based on the data that you find, but you definitely should understand if you are going to be making a decision that looks very different because that's going to change your approach to things.

00;32;59;19 - 00;33;14;05

Neel Desai

Sure, I think considering it as one input of many is helpful, I guess in understanding and on the upside, it's never been easier right to survey existing customers because customers who used to be customers, prospective customers, it's never been easier to get in touch with these folks hundred percent.

00;33;14;05 - 00;33;31;28

Patrick Campbell

And that's why, you know, when when we look at our company, not only when we're, you know, building features, we send out surveys, we also have, you know, consistent NPS going out. We have a very high fidelity survey that Meg are ahead of people. OPS meets with every single person at the company almost every single quarter. There's a lot of different things.

00;33;31;28 - 00;33;52;09

Patrick Campbell

There's no excuse for not collecting feedback. And I think that presents another problem, which is like how do you actually filter the feedback out? And I think that comes from starting really starts with making sure you set up the survey properly in the beginning. And I think that's something that we can teach us a little bit more about because it's not as simple as just following, you know, proper statistical methodologies and things like that.

00;33;52;09 - 00;34;14;13

Patrick Campbell

It gets into actually making the survey experience proper, not sending a 45 question survey that emailed to you where the first question is, what's your email address? But, but actually making it an enjoyable experience. And to learn a little bit more about that, let's have Lila close this out and teach us, you know, what makes a good survey.

00;34;14;13 - 00;34;25;07

Patrick Campbell

What makes a good survey, what makes good research to find out some sort of an about people like some sort of goal? Like what does that look like? I know. Give you the big maybe the big question I.

00;34;25;07 - 00;34;42;25

Leela Srinivasan

Know practical answer is not too many open ended questions. Okay. Because I mean, there's sort of a there's a practical answer, which is, you know, you want to make sure that you get as many as many legitimate complaints as you can. And so if your survey is seven open ended questions, you really don't get a lot, you know, but but you want some amount of richness.

00;34;43;00 - 00;34;59;28

Leela Srinivasan

And so it's sort of the first thing is very practically speaking, just the balance between open ended and quantitative questions so that you can roll up into insights beyond that, I think it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. So from a more if I were my marketing hat for a second, I've run service for I mean, I lost count as I was start preparing to come in here.

00;35;00;09 - 00;35;02;16

Patrick Campbell

I mean, you were in management consulting, you were in sales, you.

00;35;02;16 - 00;35;03;28

Leela Srinivasan

Were writing product to market.

00;35;03;28 - 00;35;06;05

Patrick Campbell

Everything you've done has been about research on some level.

00;35;06;06 - 00;35;30;10

Leela Srinivasan

That's right. That's exactly right. So I think one of my favorite use cases for surveys, though, is in developing really insightful, differentiated and valuable content for whichever audience you're marketing to. Right. So I think was that there is then, you know, you have to do your homework. You have to understand what else is out there because let's face it, there are you know, there is a lot of content out there today and it's becoming harder and harder to stand out.

00;35;30;13 - 00;35;47;11

Leela Srinivasan

But I do think you can stand out incredibly well if you just select your questions carefully. And what I've tried to do in surveys I've run is have a balance of questions. You sort of have to plan ahead to the outputs and think about what are the headlines going to be. You know, obviously you have a hypothesis about where the where the results will take you.

00;35;47;11 - 00;36;14;14

Leela Srinivasan

So knowing that hypothesis and thinking through not only which questions will deliver surprising or some sort of insight that I can lay out as a challenge or statement almost and then sprinkling enough fairy dust or sort of nuggets of fun that will make the survey or the insights really pop simple. So I mean, I'll give you a silly example, and this is not this is off the content track, but from my first marketing, all hands here ran a survey of the team.

00;36;14;14 - 00;36;37;25

Leela Srinivasan

Of course, we do a lot of surveying around here, by the way. No idea what. So so the point of the survey was principally to get the teams feedback on one of our company values, which is around customer centricity and listening to customers and figure out which on our marketing team exhibited that best exhibited that value. Right? So I really wanted to hear a first time perspective across the organization on who's really nailing it on that dimension.

00;36;38;04 - 00;36;52;20

Leela Srinivasan

So that was a that was a really important and I thought, valuable and insightful and meaningful use of a survey. QUESTION The question after that was, What's your spirit animal? Which allowed me to layer in a different set, Oh, you can.

00;36;52;23 - 00;36;54;14

Patrick Campbell

Cross-reference that data like.

00;36;54;23 - 00;36;55;26

Leela Srinivasan

This. You actually should have.

00;36;55;26 - 00;36;57;01

Patrick Campbell

The labs are like this.

00;36;57;04 - 00;37;17;11

Leela Srinivasan

I should have done that. But more that it gave me the flexibility to be serious, insightful and meaningful at one point and then kind of fun in the next breath. And so I encourage people to think about, you know, think about the outputs. I do think of content as edutainment. So I think I try and find ways to educate, but while also keeping an eye open for opportunities to entertain.

00;37;22;18 - 00;37;24;21

Patrick Campbell

Interesting spirit animal with your spirit animal.

00;37;24;21 - 00;37;27;20

Neel Desai

Now my spirit animal, probably the elephant.

00;37;27;23 - 00;37;33;17

Patrick Campbell

Is it because it's so empathetic in collecting information via surveys? No hard pass, but.

00;37;34;08 - 00;37;37;25

Neel Desai

I don't think elephants are sending services anytime soon. But it's got the full package right?

00;37;37;25 - 00;37;43;25

Patrick Campbell

What if animals sent surveys? What if animals actually had like, are we the only animal that send surveys?

00;37;43;25 - 00;37;50;22

Neel Desai

I guess probably all fun fact over the weekend we caught puffins using tools for the first time ever.

00;37;51;07 - 00;37;52;12

Patrick Campbell

What was the tool they used?

00;37;52;15 - 00;37;58;12

Neel Desai

Yeah, the puffin was using a stick to scratch its back and this is huge from an evolutionary as well as a.

00;37;58;12 - 00;38;02;09

Patrick Campbell

Couple of other animals that are have started using tools. Maybe be pretty wild of surveys.

00;38;02;09 - 00;38;05;09

Neel Desai

I think the first birds, the first bird, that's that's pretty wild.

00;38;05;09 - 00;38;07;20

Patrick Campbell

Yeah. It's funny to think about it because surveys are a tool.

00;38;07;29 - 00;38;08;23

Neel Desai

Right? Yeah.

00;38;08;23 - 00;38;36;29

Patrick Campbell

And I think like any tool, if you don't know how to use it properly, you can either hurt yourself or you don't get the benefit from it. Right? You know, if you use a hammer in the incorrect direction, you're going to mess things up, you might hurt yourself, etc.. And I think that what Leila was talking about, at least in my opinion here, is not only using service properly, but actually, as we kind of alluded to before, using it to enhance the actual experience, because I think we have a lot of survey fatigue when you, you know, talk to people and I've talked in front of lots of different rooms about, you know, customer development

00;38;36;29 - 00;38;55;17

Patrick Campbell

and doing research and things like this. And oftentimes when I ask, you know, who here, you know, loves surveys, there's maybe one person in an audience of 100 who will actually raise their hands. And most people when I say, oh, everyone hates surveys, they're like, Yeah, yeah, we don't like surveys. And I think it's one of those things you have to learn to use the tool.

00;38;55;17 - 00;39;14;18

Patrick Campbell

And because there's so much of that fatigue, you do need to make the experience great. One of the things that we do at Profile well with our Price intelligence product is we always recommend when you're sending an email to get feedback is being really explicit in the subject line about how long the survey's going to take. So we say share in shaping profitable future.

00;39;15;01 - 00;39;33;02

Patrick Campbell

Dash 60 seconds, 30 seconds. And what we found in doing customer research and we can share this in the shownotes a little bit more detailed, is that the proper survey, if you're not compensating, someone should really be you know, 60 seconds max, which is maybe like five or six questions that you might be able to get away with.

00;39;33;16 - 00;40;02;15

Patrick Campbell

And it doesn't mean they don't build longer surveys. Of course, you can do that, but you should make sure that someone's compensated or, you know, you're having a specific, you know, hey, we're going to buy everyone lunch. You know, you're sit down and take the survey if it's for, you know, team or things like that. But you want to chunk things down in a way that you're playing a multi move game of research that if you make that experience really great by asking some of these fun questions or even publishing some of the data which you know, a number of people do that you know, brings people coming back, you can actually flex that tool,

00;40;02;15 - 00;40;06;02

Patrick Campbell

that muscle that you're building and get that feedback that you're looking for.

00;40;06;02 - 00;40;25;27

Neel Desai

I think that makes a lot of sense. So much of it is expectation setting, right? When my expectations are met, you know, or exceeded, I'm happy. And when they're not, I think I'm disappointed sometimes. I'm legitimately happy to give feedback to products I love. Right. Like, like I have totally influenced products that I enjoy using by giving feedback or filling out a survey.

00;40;25;27 - 00;40;29;20

Neel Desai

So I'm happy to do it if I know that it's being received in a positive way.

00;40;29;23 - 00;40;49;03

Patrick Campbell

In their feedback cycle, I think is super important and we always haven't been great at that, which is collect the data and then make sure that people are aware of what you did and what changes. Close a loop or, you know, the things that you just kind of refused. Right, Right. Like that's an interesting email to send your customers or your users, which is like, Hey, everyone said this.

00;40;49;18 - 00;41;04;07

Patrick Campbell

We have chosen not to because of X, and then all of a sudden it's like, okay, well, maybe that's okay because now you don't have to answer all those questions about roadmap. Totally. You can also, you know, hopefully have a plan as to how you can fit that need, because that's mostly what happens with those those types of emails.

00;41;04;07 - 00;41;06;05

Neel Desai

You know, who does this really well? Ben and Jerry's.

00;41;06;15 - 00;41;07;06

Patrick Campbell

Ben and Jerry's.

00;41;07;06 - 00;41;12;26

Neel Desai

Yeah, I was just at their factories last week and they had this thing called the Flavor Graveyard.

00;41;12;27 - 00;41;15;19

Patrick Campbell

I saw this on TV or something. I saw, Yeah.

00;41;15;19 - 00;41;29;06

Neel Desai

It's like a legit graveyard with tombstones and everything of all the features, all the flavors they have killed off over the years. And a little bit of history. Each one, things like peanut butter and jelly and stuff like that. Yeah, but I think it killed.

00;41;29;06 - 00;41;30;15

Patrick Campbell

Them based on feedback.

00;41;31;04 - 00;41;47;28

Neel Desai

Exactly. Probably. And two or three have actually been brought back because of feedback. But the lesson there is it gives people a space to talk about it honestly and you know, customer as well. There may be fans of some of those understand why you know those were those were killed off.

00;41;48;03 - 00;42;06;24

Patrick Campbell

I think and I didn't get a chance to ask you this and maybe you should circle back with her to figure this out. But I think it's kind of fascinating, as I've always found, like retail products or CPG products, those companies that we talked to, the reason we we help subscription companies mainly is because CPG and retail companies are typically very good at research.

00;42;07;04 - 00;42;27;11

Patrick Campbell

They're very, very good at collecting this information because I think it's been ingrained in their industry for, you know, decades at this particular point where a thousand subscriptions like the best in the world have been very good at this. But now, you know, they're everyone's being forced to do it. And so, yeah, I think it's really, really fascinating, you know, just how important that feedback cycle is now.

00;42;27;13 - 00;42;30;22

Neel Desai

Absolutely.

00;42;30;22 - 00;42;31;16

Patrick Campbell

So what do we learn this week?

00;42;31;21 - 00;42;39;24

Neel Desai

Marketing at all companies of different stages and sizes is going to be challenging, right? It's a constant evolution. And the most important things, the new.

00;42;39;24 - 00;42;41;03

Patrick Campbell

You're not the engineer anymore.

00;42;41;14 - 00;42;48;20

Neel Desai

The most important thing is building that team around you to to help you execute and build the company forward.

00;42;48;21 - 00;43;09;13

Patrick Campbell

Yeah, I think structuring the team properly as well. And I think another really big thing that we talked about that I think that can't get enough emphasis is really the concept of being empathetic and empowering that curiosity that you have by collecting feedback. We have one of our, you know, kind of axioms within one of our principles here.

00;43;09;13 - 00;43;34;12

Patrick Campbell

Profit Well, as feedback is non-negotiable, and I think we live that, but we could do a lot better at that when it comes to, you know, ironic given that we have a product that said, you know, the algorithms are fed by surveys, is doing more and more research and just finding the time for. And I think that's a big thing that a lot of folks kind of need to get over that fatigue and that anxiety around sending surveys and collecting feedback because it is so important to the market and just the environmental incident.

00;43;34;17 - 00;43;35;21

Neel Desai

No, absolutely.

00;43;35;22 - 00;43;55;27

Patrick Campbell

Well, that's all for this week on Protect the Hustle. If you want to thank Leila for imbuing all that wisdom on us, go on LinkedIn, her former employer, and basically share this episode, tagging her and thanking for all that wisdom. And if you're not subscribed to protect the hustle, if you want to continue to hear Neil and his beautiful voices, make sure you go to protect the hustle dot com and subscribe or using your podcasting app of choice.

00;43;56;06 - 00;43;58;06

Patrick Campbell

We'll see you next week.

00;44;01;10 - 00;44;13;10

Abby Sullivan

This has been a recurring studios production, the fastest growing subscription network out there. If you find use for this show, subscribe for more like it at profit WorldCom slash recur.