Empowering Potential Buyers: Melissa Kwan's Game-Changing Approach to SaaS Sales

00:00:01:16 - 00:00:23:02

Ben Hillman

Imagine walking into an art gallery where paintings of all colors, styles and sizes adorn the walls. Each masterpiece tells a story, captures an emotion, and connects with visitors in a unique way. But what if you have the desire to own one of these works of art? Yet no guide or map to lead you to the right place? No curator to answer your questions.

00:00:23:06 - 00:00:51:12

Ben Hillman

No clear path to make that painting your own. In this make believe world, the art remains tantalizingly out of reach. Beautiful to behold, but impossible to possess. The desire to own something unique. And the journey towards making it yours can be a thrilling, yet overwhelming adventure. In the world of B2B sass, the art gallery is your software, and those potential buyers are potential customers, each looking for a product that resonates with their specific needs and desires.

00:00:51:19 - 00:01:17:20

Ben Hillman

Just as the art enthusiast needs guidance, understanding and an accessible path to ownership. So to do your potential buyers or acquire a seamless and intuitive process to discover and purchase the software that will solve their problems. Empowering these potential buyers is not just about making the sale, it's about guiding them through a thoughtful journey, allowing them to connect the product and making the purchase process as simple and enjoyable as wandering through an art gallery.

00:01:18:04 - 00:01:40:23

Ben Hillman

And at the end of the day, it's about making it easy to buy your product. Enter Melissa Kwan, an artist in her own right in the world of sass. Her canvas is her business, and her brushstrokes are the decisions she makes to align her company with what makes her and her customers happy. She understands that empowering potential buyers isn't just a sales tactic.

00:01:41:02 - 00:02:04:13

Ben Hillman

It's a philosophy, a lifestyle design, an elegant dance between meeting business goals and enhancing customer experience with her expertise and building a company that's 100% sold through the Internet, she's crafted a model where customer desires meet business acumen in perfect harmony. In today's episode, we explore with Melissa Kwan the importance of knowing what you want in both life and business.

00:02:04:19 - 00:02:24:08

Ben Hillman

The art of building a company that resonates with personal values and the science behind making the software purchase process as delightful and accessible as a leisurely stroll through an art gallery. Get ready to delve into the world where sass meets the heart, where business goals align with customer happiness, and where empowering potential buyers becomes a joyous symphony of success.

00:02:25:04 - 00:02:50:04

Ben Hillman

From panel is Protect the Hustle, where we explore the truth behind the strategy and tactics of B2B, says Growth to make you an outstanding operator. I'm Ben Hillman, and on today's episode, Melissa Cohen speaks with Andrew DAVIES about empowering the buyers of your software. They talk about personal philosophy and business decision making online sales and product development, building business with friends and family, work life balance and lifestyle design and strategies for startup success.

00:02:50:08 - 00:02:59:12

Ben Hillman

After you finish the episode, check out the show notes for our Field guide from today's episode. Then, while you're leaving your five star review of the podcast, tell us what resonated most about our guest advice.

00:03:07:11 - 00:03:19:05

Andrew Davies

Melissa, fantastic to have you here. Perhaps you can just give me the as we just walk up here, why don't you give me the potted history of Melissa and some of the experiences you've had traveling, building, businesses, bootstrapping. Give us a bit of the highlights for us.

00:03:19:05 - 00:03:41:07

Melissa Kwan

13 years of start ups now working on my third year webinar, All Bootstraps. I lived in New York to grow. My previous startup decided that it was better to redirect our rent to Airbnbs. I think four years ago we left New York to travel full time. So did that for three years, saw the world, discovered Amsterdam, fell in love with it, started meeting friends here, and then ended up kind of settling in Amsterdam where I am right now.

00:03:41:07 - 00:03:49:13

Melissa Kwan

But we really just spend three months here and then the rest of the year just trying to find warmer places to be. So that's kind of a super high level, my background.

00:03:49:14 - 00:03:52:15

Andrew Davies

So outside of Amsterdam, where is your favorite place you've worked?

00:03:52:20 - 00:04:08:15

Melissa Kwan

Thailand. But it's, you know, for me, like work and life are kind of one thing, you know, So it's not like, Oh, we're traveling to work here. It's, it's like because we want to be there. But work for, for me has like we've always had remote teams before. It was cool because we couldn't afford it. We couldn't afford an office.

00:04:08:15 - 00:04:12:12

Melissa Kwan

So now it's just like, Hey, where do you want to be? And let's go there and chill out for a bit.

00:04:12:13 - 00:04:32:17

Andrew Davies

So sounds like you're early on multiple now. Cool trends moving from, you know, the B.C. world, where many people are now wanting to bootstrap, moving from big cities, where many people are wanting to make sure they're able to be remote and from having an office teams where now many, many people are wanting teams spread across the world for talent, but also for cost.

00:04:32:17 - 00:04:38:07

Andrew Davies

You know, how much of that was, you know, necessity is the mother of invention. And how much of that did you see coming around the corner.

00:04:38:07 - 00:04:55:07

Melissa Kwan

In my previous startup, I mean, I ran to sort of for ten years. So I've run now, you honor, for, you know, three and a half, four years. I learned that I am a really bad people manager like I am just not good at hiring, recruiting, firing, coming to the start up. I knew that I didn't want any employees.

00:04:55:07 - 00:05:26:21

Melissa Kwan

I wanted to build a company strictly on contractors. But I think as a booth shopper, like working with contractors is not always a choice. And for us, like it is a choice, but it's also not a choice. It is a necessity because how can we possibly compete with any salaries in the West? Like it's just not possible. So I really I knew that, you know, working with contractors is not really just optimizing costs and making this company possible, but it also allows you to hire people for really specific tasks where I really don't need them full time.

00:05:26:21 - 00:05:45:11

Melissa Kwan

I love working at contractors because they get to maximize their earnings per hour because they're really just doing that one thing for many, many clients and we get to have the best person for the job. So I've always I've always really liked that. But also I think nowadays people just they love being their own boss, right? Like, we don't have limits on what you can and cannot do of your part of this company.

00:05:45:11 - 00:06:07:20

Melissa Kwan

But I also think a lot of people think if I have a contractor, that person's all working very hard or that person is not dedicated to my company. And I don't believe that's true. Like, I think you get to define, you know, how you get to work with a contractor and we have over ten on our team. I would say like eight or nine of them are full time, but because they're spread around the world, just accounting wise, we pay them as a contractor.

00:06:07:20 - 00:06:11:01

Melissa Kwan

And if they worked on a side project, that's totally fine with me.

00:06:11:01 - 00:06:30:18

Andrew Davies

So it sounds like one of the constants behind some of your experiences is the ability to build companies with very little resource. Talk to me a bit about that and what are the challenges, but also the opportunities of operating under those constraints. And then particularly when it comes to $0 marketing and go to market when you don't have capital to fund it?

00:06:30:21 - 00:06:49:09

Melissa Kwan

I think the challenges are obvious, right? I think a lot of people listening to this, if you're a bootstrap or, you know, like I don't have to explain that the constraints of building a business when you don't have money, right? Like, I would love to build an all star team, people with experience, but a lot of times you just have to find someone you can offer for the highest and best use, right?

00:06:49:09 - 00:07:03:16

Melissa Kwan

And you do have to make a lot of sacrifices. Your company doesn't grow as fast. You can't spend any money in marketing. And I don't mean like you can spend a little like zero, which is no money in marketing. You can barely pay, you know, your own your own team. I don't I haven't paid myself for four years.

00:07:03:16 - 00:07:21:03

Melissa Kwan

But I think the opportunity is something that I've also heard, you know, Patrick Campbell talk about a lot as well, is you are forced to listen to customers you don't get. You know, I think a lot of times when you buy revenue, like that's what someone does, like you have a lot of money, you throw money and as you buy revenue, you get a false sense of success, Right?

00:07:21:03 - 00:07:44:06

Melissa Kwan

You don't have any false sense of successes. When you bootstrap a company, you hear everything. Every opinion matters. You listen to every single feedback and you really meticulously execute the ones that you know are going to make a difference for your business. So whether that's going to be earning a new customer or retaining a current customer, every single decision is around protecting revenue and getting new revenue.

00:07:44:06 - 00:08:06:12

Melissa Kwan

And I think that just allows you to build a significantly better product. It also allows you to be a significantly better salesperson and storyteller and marketer for your own business as you have to be. Especially that's still founder led If you are so lucky to get to that point of profitability, then you can start reinvesting some of that profit into maybe pay channels.

00:08:06:12 - 00:08:19:07

Melissa Kwan

But at that point, like 90% of marketing is an incredible product and at that point you've got an incredible product. So I think there's I certainly think that the benefits outweigh the costs of, especially in the beginning bootstrapping.

00:08:19:08 - 00:08:38:09

Andrew Davies

I find it really interesting that in the early times I increasingly saw founders who wanted to delegates away the responsibility for those first sales or wanted to delegate away the responsibility for that early go to market. And it sounds like that's something that you don't do. You own that and own that responsibility. Let's help the audience here. What are your tips?

00:08:38:09 - 00:08:44:04

Andrew Davies

What are the frameworks you use when when it comes to founder led sales, the early stage of winning that first ten customers.

00:08:44:06 - 00:09:06:00

Melissa Kwan

A lot of people want to delegate away that operate like that responsibility because sales is just hard, right? Like I've been a salesperson before I started businesses. So my last job that I worked for was from SAP. I was trained by many different sales coaches. I love the win, but most founders are not that way. So I and the thing is like learning to deal with rejection, like emotionally.

00:09:06:00 - 00:09:22:02

Melissa Kwan

Detaching yourself from rejection is a learned skill that I've been fortunate enough over the years to to have acquired that. But I get it. If someone else can make the sale, then I don't have to go and get rejected. But especially in the early on, like when you build a product in a silo and it's brand new, no one's seen it.

00:09:22:03 - 00:09:40:07

Melissa Kwan

If you are not listening firsthand to what those objections are, you're not connecting your product with the story that people want to hear. And that's, I think that could be really detrimental to a startup because that basically determines your roadmap, right? What do I work on first? What are the bugs I have to fix? Well, the ones that are not important or what are the new features?

00:09:40:08 - 00:10:02:12

Melissa Kwan

I'm going to work on. I think that's really dangerous when it comes to and that's why I believe in founder led sales, especially, you know, in the beginning is like and just using myself as an example, like we built you webinar because it was solving a problem that I lived with for five years. When I started selling this product, I was telling the story that I wanted to tell, but how people were reacting to it, what I was trying to sell to them was completely different.

00:10:02:12 - 00:10:18:08

Melissa Kwan

So then I had to rewrite my pitch according to the objections that I was getting while weaving in my own story to make it more human. I think some of the tips that I would have around found a lot. Sales number one is like, no matter how hard it is, do it yourself. But also understand that no one's born a great salesperson.

00:10:18:08 - 00:10:36:08

Melissa Kwan

Sales is a science, right? It's not like a personality. And the good news is because it's a science, everybody can learn it. It's a science of figuring out how to align what you're saying with what you want someone to hear. And I think that's the best relationship. Builders know how to align the two because a lot of times what you're saying is not what they want to hear.

00:10:36:08 - 00:10:53:02

Melissa Kwan

I think the most effective way to sell something is first to tell your story, like to really tie your like why are you the best person to build this company, to build this product, right? Like, there's so many people out there, but why are you the person to solve this problem for me? So really position yourself as the expert.

00:10:53:02 - 00:11:18:11

Melissa Kwan

And the next thing to do, which I don't think a lot of people do, I've rarely heard this in a sales pitch is address the competition upfront before you do the pitch, before your presentation, before the demo, talk about the status quo, like why do you exist? What are the shortcomings of the competition? And the reason why that's important, to get out of the way is you have to assume that your prospect has already done the research, like they know your other five competitors that are out there.

00:11:18:14 - 00:11:30:13

Melissa Kwan

So if you don't get that objection out of the way throughout your sales pitch, they're just going to be thinking, well, how are you different than this? How are you different in this? I'm going to wait until the end for me to ask this question. So you almost want to, like, get their mind off of that objection before you go into your demo.

00:11:30:13 - 00:11:45:16

Melissa Kwan

And then after you address the competition, then you talk about your solution. It could be a demo, it could be a sales presentation. But I think the mistake a lot of people make about delivering their sales pitch is they get too technical about what the product is, right? If you're CRM, you don't have to talk about how you insert a lead.

00:11:45:16 - 00:12:03:03

Melissa Kwan

You only have to talk about the four or five things that make you unique and why you exist in the market and why you're better and different. And the way that I suggest telling that is not in like, Oh, here's a feature and how you do it. We have it in other people don't. It's not a mini story of how that feature changes somebody's life.

00:12:03:04 - 00:12:22:00

Melissa Kwan

You know, it could be, you know, I have this feature, my customer used it and, you know, he increases productivity by ten times. Like that's a much more human, I guess, for lack of a better term. And it's a much better way for me to understand how that feature impacts my life. And then at the end, I think a lot of people actually also business is like ask for the close, like whatever that closes.

00:12:22:03 - 00:12:35:20

Melissa Kwan

Maybe it's, you know, sign up for a trial, maybe it's book a call with our sales team or can we send you a proposal? Like what do you think about this where a lot of people are just like, Oh yeah, my sales pitches over, my demos over and that's it. There's no follow up because people are kind of scared.

00:12:35:20 - 00:12:50:20

Melissa Kwan

That's a rejection. If I don't ask and I don't get rejected. But asking for the close, if you don't do it, then you've just wasted, you know, 30 minutes of your time and someone else's time. So I think these are like the main tips that I would have as to how to deliver the most effective sales pitch.

00:12:50:21 - 00:13:04:10

Andrew Davies

So take us back to the, you know, three, three and a half years ago, the early days of your webinar. You how do you go out and win those first ten customers? What were some of the knock backs? What were the rejection that you had to deal with as part of that habit building and what were the successes you saw?

00:13:04:10 - 00:13:05:15

Andrew Davies

How did you win those first few?

00:13:05:15 - 00:13:26:12

Melissa Kwan

I was fortunate enough to have, you know, two companies before this, so I had a potential customer list. And, you know, there's no magic bullet, right? It was just a lot of hard work. I just went out, I made a list on Google sheets of every single person. I just went down, my phone went down, all my emails, every single person, every company that I think could use this product.

00:13:26:14 - 00:13:44:16

Melissa Kwan

So it was just like name company, email or phone number. And then I just went down the list like two weeks before. We were like we were about to release a product to a public. I just went down the list and got in touch with every single one and just wanted to get a call with them to tell them what I'm doing next, because I know a lot of people knew that I had sold my previous company, just got on a call to tell them what we were doing next.

00:13:44:17 - 00:14:07:16

Melissa Kwan

If it was interesting for them, then I would ask if they wanted to get on an onboarding call to try the product. But the main difference is we didn't have a beta or an alpha. Like I wanted everybody to know because we're bootstrapped. So I wanted to collect revenue from day one. And yes, it probably took us an extra six months to build the product because I wanted to get credit cards from day one, but I also didn't have the time to waste.

00:14:07:18 - 00:14:27:21

Melissa Kwan

So everybody that wanted to try the product, they knew that they were getting a 60 day free trial instead of 14. At the end of 60 days, they could either keep the subscription or cancel, but they knew they were paying for about eight weeks. I probably did about 8 to 10 demos per day, and that kind of went against, you know, what we do, what we webinar.

00:14:27:22 - 00:14:53:21

Melissa Kwan

But that was so important for me to figure out the one pitch that I knew could close people if I didn't talk to them. So if I hadn't done hundreds of those demos, I would not be able to come up with that one polished pitch that I knew I could just set on like autopilot and since then it's been, you know, two years since then, I probably have done 90 webinar over 5000 demos and I've never done a single one of them live.

00:14:53:23 - 00:15:11:02

Andrew Davies

So we definitely had to come back to that because I know making that journey frictionless both from yourself operationally but also from the customer's perspective is something that's really important here. And we want to learn from that. That first eight weeks, ten calls a day, five days a week. So that must be near. On a 400 different conversations you had, did that get you that first?

00:15:11:02 - 00:15:17:17

Andrew Davies

You know, when you think about that 60 day trial, did that get you that first batch of clients? Did you see churn in that process? Talk to me about what the success rate was then.

00:15:17:17 - 00:15:39:18

Melissa Kwan

I think we got to in those 60 days, I think we got something like 130 sign ups. I think over 80% of those converted to to a paid subscription. But a lot of these were one or like were one or two degrees removed, right? Because these were like old customers, old partners, friends of mine that like I knew they had this problem and I knew this problem so well because I live with this problem for four, five years, right?

00:15:39:18 - 00:16:00:06

Melissa Kwan

So I could speak to their pain. I knew their business. But your immediate network runs out pretty quickly if you're burning through it that fast. So we had to figure out a lot more other ways to get the word out and beyond those for, I guess, first half year, there wasn't a ton of churn, but I guess you guys would know that over time, of course, people sign up, they're enthusiastic about it.

00:16:00:06 - 00:16:12:16

Melissa Kwan

They don't actually get on. You know, they have intention to to start automating the webinars. But six months goes by, they haven't done it. So eventually they hit the cancel button. But, you know, we serve an SMB, you know, market. So that's bound to happen.

00:16:12:16 - 00:16:35:13

Andrew Davies

I remember probably three months ago I went into a software procurement process and a few different vendors I was looking at for this particular tool, and I went through that painful process that I know you will have experience and are actively trying to reduce. Where I knew what I wanted. I wanted to get a bit more information, but the first conversation has to be a detailed one with someone gathering some discovery questions off me.

00:16:35:13 - 00:16:57:04

Andrew Davies

And it felt like something that I could have done in multiple other formats asynchronously. But I had to get on a 30 minute discovery call before I went forward to find pricing, to find detailed questions about my integrations. I wanted to dig into talk to me about sales LED versus product led and how you see those two blend with an automated process and really how the sales process is really about getting out of the customer's way.

00:16:57:06 - 00:17:18:11

Melissa Kwan

Yeah, I mean, that's such a big question, right? And there's nothing more annoying as a buyer in their research journey, clicking on pricing and getting like contact me on all their pricing charts saying book a demo and then you get like a calendar link and is not even in your time zone or like you have to fill in a form and all the questions are required and you're like, I just want to see how this works.

00:17:18:11 - 00:17:32:16

Melissa Kwan

Like, why can't I just see how this works, right? And then you go to like YouTube and then you search to see of those like some video demo or something like that. So that's definitely the process that we're, you know, we're we're trying to eliminate, unfortunately, especially in like the world of software, a lot of companies are still playing that game.

00:17:32:16 - 00:17:54:14

Melissa Kwan

And I love quoting this. There's a report from Trust Radius called B2B Buying Disconnect. And in 2022, I think the research says 87% of buyers want to do their own buying journey without talking to a salesperson. 57% of people already buy without talking to a salesperson. And this year, a year later, it's 100% of people want to do their own research in their buying journey.

00:17:54:14 - 00:18:11:12

Melissa Kwan

And if you think about like how we buy software, it's just so antiquated, right? Like if Andrew if you want to buy to like what's the first thing that you do? You go to Amazon, you read, yeah, you Google it, you read the reviews, you ask your friends, you get all the information, and then you walk into a store and say, Can you help me tell the difference between A and B, right?

00:18:11:12 - 00:18:32:08

Melissa Kwan

People still want to engage with a salesperson, but only at my own time. I don't want to get on a discovery hall to see if I'm worthy of more information. It's just not a great buying experience. But I also think it is such a great opportunity for companies to understand this, to leverage information transparency as your greatest competitive advantage.

00:18:32:08 - 00:18:45:18

Melissa Kwan

What if I'm trying to buy, you know, tell the difference between A and B, and when I go to A, I get this contact form, but when I go to B, I get to hop into a demo right away. Like, that's the experience I remember. That's what I love and that's what I'm going to tell my friends about.

00:18:45:19 - 00:19:08:00

Melissa Kwan

So I think there's a lot of these sales led companies that try to get every single lead to talk to their BTR or salesperson because they feel like I like I have all the information. If they don't talk to me, they're not going to understand it. But that's just not how we buy anything nowadays. So why is it that when we buy software we're forced into this process that everybody hates, But when we're a seller, we also want that process.

00:19:08:02 - 00:19:29:12

Melissa Kwan

When we're buyer, we don't want that process, right? So that's kind of the B2B buying disconnect. But I think huge opportunities for companies to understand this to better align their sales and marketing strategy to what their customer actually wants, right? Give people the information and the power to discover information and research at their own time. Maybe I don't want to do it between 9 to 5 because I'm busy.

00:19:29:12 - 00:19:47:11

Melissa Kwan

Maybe I want to do it at nine at night, or maybe I want to do it on the weekends. I should have the option to do that. And the craziest thing is a lot of companies selling product LED products are running sales LED processes like there are so many companies I've been to that that would say, Oh, this is the best product led software that you can have.

00:19:47:17 - 00:20:04:20

Melissa Kwan

But when I go and get a demo, I have to fill in a form I fully believe that if you give the buyer everything that they want, give them the journey that they enjoy. That's part of your brand, that's part of your product, and that's the message that you want them to tell and write about. So what we do, we give everybody information to everything.

00:20:04:20 - 00:20:18:14

Melissa Kwan

We're not scared that our competitors are going to come and like I know they've picked apart our product the same way that we picked them apart. Right? But people are so scared to share information because they're like, Oh, what if someone sees as well, guess what? They already know. They already know what you're offering your pricing. So we give everyone everything.

00:20:18:14 - 00:20:23:03

Melissa Kwan

And if they, you know, want to talk to us and then they come to us. But most people just sign up on their own.

00:20:23:03 - 00:20:45:21

Andrew Davies

When distribution is the main battleground, every company can really have that competitive advantage by moving value as close to the edge of the customer as possible, which I guess is what you're saying here, that you're you're trying to open up as much value, as much information as possible, as close to the customer as possible. Let's just make this really practical for a bunch of the founders that will be listening or go to market leaders will be listening who are thinking about how they can do this with their own product.

00:20:45:21 - 00:20:52:00

Andrew Davies

Talk us through how do you create and script an on demand demo? How do you do this from the inside out?

00:20:52:02 - 00:21:11:06

Melissa Kwan

I think the the important thing to understand is the difference between a one on one demo and an on demand demo. Like it is so much easier, like having been in sales for almost 20 years now to sell one on one because I can react to you, I can address your objections, I can bounce off your humor like it's most people can sell 1 to 1, even if they're not a great salesperson.

00:21:11:06 - 00:21:31:22

Melissa Kwan

But selling on demand and making a demo on demand means you're selling to someone without ever talking to them. So how do you close someone without ever talking to them? So I think the major difference is if you understand that, then you'll also understand that if you're delivering an on demand demo, you have to address your prospect's objections before they even come up.

00:21:31:23 - 00:21:58:05

Melissa Kwan

So in your script, you already have to address all the things they're thinking in their head. And the only way to do that is to understand the major objections that most prospects are going to have, which is running. A process that I did before is before I automated my own demo. I probably did over to hundred one on one demos and gathered all the information I needed, the most common objections, and then I use that to script my on demand demo before automated it.

00:21:58:09 - 00:22:18:08

Melissa Kwan

So I have five elements I've kind of lightly touched on previously, but I have what I call the five elements of an on demand demo. So imagine you're making a video demo that you're going to send to everybody. What are the five most important elements that you're going to have in there? Number one is the agenda. The reason why you want to have the agenda is because you don't want people to you don't want people to wonder where this is going.

00:22:18:08 - 00:22:33:15

Melissa Kwan

Right. It really sets their mind towards like, okay, in the next half hour, these are the things that I'm going to go over. So then they don't get antsy about, Oh, do I have enough time? Should I shut this off? Right. It just helps focus, but also it helps them understand where in the process you are as you go through your different highlights.

00:22:33:16 - 00:22:52:12

Melissa Kwan

Number two is to tell your story. Why are you the best person to do this? Build credibility. I've been in sales for 13 years. I've experienced this problem for five. This is a product I wish existed. Like that's my story. And then number three is talk about your competition, but don't mention the names. You don't need to say we have this, but all of our competitors suck and this is it.

00:22:52:13 - 00:23:14:07

Melissa Kwan

This is why they suck. That's not what I mean when I say address or competition. It's more about the status quo. Like what is the state of the world that you're trying to change? And a really great way to address the competition is to say something like, I tried to use similar products before. These were the things that I found that were missing, and this is why we built these features into our product to address this gap in the market.

00:23:14:07 - 00:23:33:20

Melissa Kwan

Anyone who's done their research that agrees with you is going to start nodding right in their head. They're going to say yes, and any salesperson will know you want the person to say yes as many times as are in their head as possible in the next half hour. And then as you go through your demo, you pack 4 to 5 key features that make you unique and you tell them as customer stories, you tell them as success stories.

00:23:33:20 - 00:23:49:03

Melissa Kwan

This is a, you know, a scheduling feature. And our customer used us and was able to run this around the clock, like don't just go through the features as it is without connecting a benefit to it and how you've improved someone's life. And then at the end is just ask for the clause. Hey, sign up here, book a call here.

00:23:49:03 - 00:24:04:17

Melissa Kwan

If you want a proposal, click here, whatever it might be. But make sure you ask for the clothes and ask for a next step. And that's it. Like, if you have these five elements within your on demand demo, within your video, I guarantee you you'll see a much higher close rate than if you just said, Hey, this is our product.

00:24:04:18 - 00:24:05:09

Melissa Kwan

Give us a call.

00:24:05:09 - 00:24:11:19

Andrew Davies

We've just gone through the skeleton of what makes a great demo. Can you talk to me a bit about some of the worst demos you've ever been part of, either given or received?

00:24:12:00 - 00:24:28:17

Melissa Kwan

I've been in demos where they don't even tell me their name, like, let alone tell the story. And the thing is, if you're if you're a salesperson delivering the demo, you don't have to tell your story. You can tell the company's story. Why are you the company that I want to work with? Like I've had a lot of people that just goes right into the product.

00:24:28:20 - 00:24:47:17

Melissa Kwan

And I think the worst that like really the worst demos are the ones I just do a click through of the product because it doesn't really help me understand how you're different than the competition that I'm already looking at. You're making me do my own research and not helping me validate the research that I've already done. And then of course, as a salesperson, I always take no one.

00:24:47:17 - 00:24:51:18

Melissa Kwan

People don't ask for a CTA that doesn't make it a bad demo. It just makes you a bad salesperson.

00:24:51:18 - 00:25:15:09

Andrew Davies

And we're seeing an increasing number of companies that, you know, go beyond demos into on demand demos, but into sandbox experiences or life product experiences. Right? And that's the heartbeat of product led growth when the product itself becomes the instrument or the lens for, you know, monetization, upsell, etc.. Do you have any kind of rules of thumb of when you think this is a necessary stage for a product versus just giving them access and letting them go?

00:25:15:10 - 00:25:19:20

Melissa Kwan

Yeah, I mean, you mean in the realm of like letting someone actually access your product? Yeah.

00:25:19:20 - 00:25:28:19

Andrew Davies

Is it about product complexity? Is it about the number of people signing off the annual contract value? You know, what are the ways that mean that this is a necessary phase versus just go and get going?

00:25:28:19 - 00:25:51:17

Melissa Kwan

I know that there are products like that that exist. I mean, they're called interactive demo products. I personally don't see a lot of value in those, but I also don't sell large enterprise solutions anymore. I think where those types of demos create the most value is when you're in complex sales cycles and you need to give your champion something to take back to their team.

00:25:51:17 - 00:26:07:22

Melissa Kwan

But I would really use those things as more of a closing mechanism, like when you're so deep into that buying cycle that like I know this person's going to buy and if I don't give them this to sell the team or sell sell it up and they're not going to buy, I don't really see that as a top of funnel product.

00:26:07:23 - 00:26:20:17

Melissa Kwan

What I'm talking about as an on demand demo, like that's more of a top of funnel thing that that you would do is like it allows you to cast a really wide net but to give someone access to your product I think would be like way further down the funnel. That's how I would treat it.

00:26:20:18 - 00:26:32:05

Andrew Davies

Talk to us a little bit about your your go to market right now. So you say you've got nine or ten contractors who is working on the growth of your business and how much of the growth in your business is now fully automated?

00:26:32:05 - 00:26:52:16

Melissa Kwan

I am the primary person working on the growth of my business. I wish there were more, but, you know, bootstraps. Yes. So we actually invest a lot in content and SEO and we own that strategy. Our CEO, who's also our product person, he owns our entire content strategy. So we create I think last year we created over 200 pieces of content.

00:26:52:16 - 00:27:09:22

Melissa Kwan

We're slowing that down now just because last year we were still we're still fairly new and we needed to exist in the Internet. The majority of my day is figuring out how to get more eyeballs for free. And you know, it's not really free because my time. But last year I started writing on, you know, LinkedIn once a day on the weekdays to share my experience.

00:27:09:22 - 00:27:28:19

Melissa Kwan

Bootstrapped bootstrapping, three startups to create an audience around my experience and my expertise. Because ultimately, like bootstrap founders and companies that are not well-resourced are our best customers because we are almost an extra person, an extra set of hands. So I want to speak to that community. So I took some courses on like LinkedIn algorithms and how to write on LinkedIn and how to create content.

00:27:28:19 - 00:27:43:08

Melissa Kwan

And I started trying my hand at that. But the thing that I love about creating content is it forces you to think about your business in a different way. So I do it also for that. And then we of course invest in a lot in Cosan SEO, but we also do a lot of kind of like in product collaborations.

00:27:43:08 - 00:28:13:02

Melissa Kwan

So we do a lot of like technical integrations and leverage, you know, other people's audiences to grow our own. And actually last year I started marketing myself on podcasts, just getting on to different podcasts, talking about my story, my journey, sales, marketing, you know, anything people want to talk about. I think last year I was on over six podcasts, so that's also $0 marketing that I think is hugely underutilized because, you know, chatting to to someone you like is pretty easy and like what you know, we're doing right now and since then I've also been like consuming a lot of podcasts.

00:28:13:02 - 00:28:29:06

Melissa Kwan

So that's also high. Learn about our marketing channels as well. And the new thing that I'm trying is figuring out how to repurpose all this content that we created into other channels. So I haven't really figured that that piece out yet, but it's really like building an audience, lots of content, longform blogs and getting on podcasts.

00:28:29:08 - 00:28:57:14

Andrew Davies

So let's just zoom out before we finish here. You've talked a bunch about Bootstrap as being your market. You being a bootstrap is definitely coming back into coming back into vogue post The heady heights of valuations from VCs in 2122. Talk to me about what you're seeing as trends within the bootstrapped world, particularly given, you know, we're seeing hundreds and hundreds of new startups on the generative APIs is standing on the shoulders of drones, people releasing products really quickly, therefore competition going up.

00:28:57:15 - 00:29:06:07

Andrew Davies

Yeah. How are you thinking about the broad space that you've more products in you? Who do you think in the market who are doing a really good job of bringing products to market on a really, really low budget?

00:29:06:12 - 00:29:28:14

Melissa Kwan

And so I mean, the trend I see is everyone wants to do it, but also because it's hard to raise money right now, I would say very few, like VCs or even funders are giving capital to zero revenue ideas, zero revenue companies. You have to get your company to some amount of revenue before you can even start having these capital conversations.

00:29:28:14 - 00:29:46:18

Melissa Kwan

Luckily for companies like, you know, CAPTCHAs, for example, they're giving you loans and lines of credit based on Amarah. But that also means that you have to have probably at least like 20 to 25000 monthly before you can even start having that conversation. So that's kind of the trend I see is like because people are able to raise a lot of money, they're forcing themselves into bootstrapping.

00:29:46:18 - 00:30:10:13

Melissa Kwan

But I also think that since the pandemic, people have really been forced to think about lifestyle, like, how do I want to live? Because now they spend all this time at home and they realize, Oh, I actually don't enjoy traveling for work that much. So I'm also seeing a trend of people reevaluating work life balance. I think a lot of people might think that bootstrapping is a financial choice, but for someone like me, it's a lifestyle choice.

00:30:10:13 - 00:30:28:17

Melissa Kwan

Like I want to spend more time with my friends and family. I want to build a lifestyle business, not a unicorn business, where I invite people onto my board and have to build my business a certain way, like I don't want to slave myself or my business. So I think a lot of people are also starting to to think about that as well as kind of the decision making, you know, factor.

00:30:28:17 - 00:30:31:14

Andrew Davies

And on your travels, do you ever meet up with other other bootstrap?

00:30:31:14 - 00:30:54:06

Melissa Kwan

As my entire social life is just for fun. I don't do any networking anything work related unless I'm actually working. In my previous startup, I spent so much time traveling for conferences and trade shows and living in New York and networking that like What am I non-negotiables coming into a webinar was I never want to do another networking event or conference again cycle.

00:30:54:14 - 00:30:56:04

Melissa Kwan

I don't do any of those things.

00:30:56:04 - 00:31:06:17

Andrew Davies

Are there any other principles that are formed in you by costly experience? It sounds like you're raising capital. As one of them know, networking is another 30 of those that are formed by negative experience that you're holding fast to.

00:31:06:17 - 00:31:27:17

Melissa Kwan

I never do live demos, live webinars ever again. That was my entire life in my previous startup, of course. Yes, like I built a product to support that, but that was my non-negotiable for before I decided to start this business. So before I started any business, I wrote a list of all the things I didn't want to do and the things that I must have.

00:31:27:18 - 00:31:46:00

Melissa Kwan

And you are like, That was how I eliminated 95% of ideas and you webinar was the one that fit best into that. It was also I only wanted to build a business that could be 100% sold through the Internet because I didn't want to do anymore in-person sales. And I oh, the last thing is I wanted to build a company with friends.

00:31:46:00 - 00:32:05:01

Melissa Kwan

I wanted to be able to, you know, share my successes with with friends and family. So a lot of people on our team are actually friends of ours, like really, really good friends of ours. We do have some friends and family funding, but those are all like our best friends are not like loose acquaintances. Like these are people we spend holidays with and people we imagine one day we could do an investor retreat.

00:32:05:05 - 00:32:07:12

Melissa Kwan

All the companies account and all of our friends will be there.

00:32:07:14 - 00:32:28:17

Andrew Davies

It's been great to get a glimpse into the kind of lifestyle design that sits behind what you do. And I think it's it's super interesting that we've seen this flip where lifestyle business is no longer seen as a derogatory term in so many rooms. And to see someone like yourself who's, you know, really taking that as a positive, being able to design their life for themselves, for their family, for your friends, it's super cool to see.

00:32:28:17 - 00:32:48:18

Andrew Davies

Any final thoughts for, again, this audience of of mostly product led businesses that are listening to this the audience that we serve a paddle on, you know perhaps particularly those who are pre-revenue about or get started looking at this brave new world of wondering how they win those first few first year slides, what are a few a few pieces of inspiration or guidance for those people as they meet the market?

00:32:48:22 - 00:33:06:11

Melissa Kwan

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. I think a lot of people start businesses based on what they know. Like their experience, and I was one of those people. That's why I had two startups in real estate. That was my work experience. My network was there. I start a business and well in there, but it's not what I really wanted to do.

00:33:06:12 - 00:33:23:21

Melissa Kwan

So I think a lot of people think, Oh, what are my experiences? I'll build a business on that and then I'll try to be happy after. But that's an inverted triangle, right? Like I realize after selling my previous startup, that was the reason why I was never really happy. And I couldn't really like I couldn't really enjoy my successes because I just didn't love the industry.

00:33:23:22 - 00:33:40:13

Melissa Kwan

After I had a bit of time to selling that startup to think about like what I wanted to do next. I actually inverted that triangle and started with what are the things that make me happy? And that's where that list of non-negotiables came from. What are the things that make me happy? What is the business that fits into that and what are the skills I need to get there?

00:33:40:13 - 00:33:59:16

Melissa Kwan

So now I'm still learning the skills to build this business. But even though it's hard, I know that I'm serving the foundation of my happiness to really think about what are the things that make you happiest and understand that you can always acquire the skills to get there. You don't have to do something just because that's where your experience has always been.

00:33:59:18 - 00:34:17:07

Melissa Kwan

So I think that's number one. And number two is I think we spend so much time working on our business and then in our business that we forget that the reason why we started this in the first place is for freedom. We want this for financial freedom. We want more time to spend with friends and family. We want to travel.

00:34:17:07 - 00:34:39:14

Melissa Kwan

But the bigger our business gets, the more in it we spend. Because we think if I work harder, I'm going to be more successful. If I work more, I'm going to be more productive. But that's not the case. We don't we don't need to work harder. We want to we need to work more creatively. Think about the different ways that you can delegate, automate and do a lot less to accomplish a lot more.

00:34:39:14 - 00:35:02:23

Melissa Kwan

And don't forget the reasons why you started this in the first place. You can enjoy your life and enjoy your work at the same time. It's not one or the other, and I think the happiest people know how to weave those together and become one thing. And that's even though the journey with you webinars hard, that's the mission I love the most, is being able to create a product that gives people their time back so they can do something else.

00:35:05:11 - 00:35:28:17

Ben Hillman

Shout out to Melissa for being on the show. Now you have a better understanding of empowering your buyers. Today we talked about personal philosophy and business decision making, online sales and product development, building business with friends and family, work life balance and lifestyle design and strategies for startup success. Make sure to give Protect also a five star review and tell us what lesson from today's episode was your favorite.

00:35:28:22 - 00:35:36:09

Ben Hillman

Thanks for listening. Subscribe to and tell your friends about Protect the Hustle, A podcast from Paddle Studios dedicated to helping you build better SAS.