From Pressure to Purpose: Tony Shafar's Transformational Approach to Life and Business

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Daniëlle Keeven

Our guest today is someone with a unique journey that has crossed the fairways of the golf course or the corporate halls of finance, all the way to the personal growth field of executive coaching. Meet Tony Shaffer, a man who spent his early years engrossed in sports and interestingly in the intricate world of finance. Growing up in a space where posters of his favorite footballers and golfers adorn the walls, Tony showed them the fancy for both sports and the realm of numbers from a young age.

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Daniëlle Keeven

What a distinguished crew finance Tony has walk a tightrope of corporate responsibility, dealing with balance sheets, forecast and all things numbers. But his journey didn't stop there, recognizing the potential to have an even greater impact. Tony transitioned into the realm of coaching. His mission to guide finance executives and business leaders to reach their full potential. Tony brings a wealth of expertise, real world experience and powerful insights into the nuanced world of finance leadership and personal growth.

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Daniëlle Keeven

From navigating professional challenges to fostering a healthy work life balance and cultivating a growth mindset. Tony has empowered numerous professionals to thrive in their roles. My name is Danielle Kevin. Let's uncover the hidden stories of finance professionals as they navigate money, investment and growth. Let's look into the person behind the CFO title. Let's go beyond the budget before we get into the episode.

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Daniëlle Keeven

If you enjoy the show, please leave a five star review of the podcast wherever you listen. It helps out the whole panel studios, team tremendously and lets us continue to uncover the hidden stories of CFOs. Can you describe your childhood bedroom? Was it shared? Did you have your own? What kind of posters that you have on the wall?

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Daniëlle Keeven

Who were the footballers or golfers you were looking up to?

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Tony Shafar

So I had my own I had my own bedroom and predominantly is predominantly footballers on the wall. I used to get a football magazine when I was younger. It was called Shoot where I basically and you'd have light articles and pretend to be pictures and I probably would be stacking those pictures on my my wall. My childhood as a child, I was very into football and was quite a famous Scottish footballer called Katie Dalglish.

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Tony Shafar

He was my idol growing up, so I probably recommend categorically, but am remember category that I think I probably the picture of Hayden amongst other footballers on my wall and maybe a few other pop stars as well, possibly. But I don't know.

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Daniëlle Keeven

I remember what kind of pop stars would you have on a wall?

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Tony Shafar

Well, for some reason I seem to recollect Tiffany. I think she had one. I think we're alone now. Seem to regulate. I think I may have had a picture of Howard Malveaux's well, when I was younger, but he don't call me on that. Or maybe because it's in a podcast, but I think it was on there, maybe the odd pop stars, but predominantly a football footballers.

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Daniëlle Keeven

What did your parents do for?

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Tony Shafar

My dad was a financial adviser and my mom was still my wife. She looked after I was one of three kids and an older I've got an older brother. It's a couple of years old to me and a younger sister who's probably about five or six years younger than me. So I was a middle child.

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Ben Hillman

Were you as close or was it was it a close family?

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Tony Shafar

Pretty close. We did quite a lot as a family growing up. So, yeah, quite a lot of family values are quite important and this is certainly something that I tried and stole to my got three children who are pretty close in age. I've got my oldest to start, my middle one's 12th and my my youngest is almost 11, so they're pretty close and aged three under three, you know, whilst they've got their own friends.

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Tony Shafar

And it's really important for them to have their own friends. Obviously I do think it's important for them to have one two good relationships with each other as well. So yeah, I is certainly something we do quite a lot as a family, my wife and three kids and I.

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Daniëlle Keeven

What kind of subjects that you gravitate towards in school?

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Tony Shafar

Well, I predominantly when, when I got later in my school life where there was a bit more choice, I gravitated towards things like economics and accounting because I was always quite interested in business and they were quite personal. They were obviously business related subjects. I was naturally quite good at maths. I was quite naturally quite good at numbers.

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Tony Shafar

I was probably more logical and creative, being naturally quite good at maths and being interested in business. It became things like economics, in accounting became things that I naturally gravitate towards.

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Daniëlle Keeven

And what did you want to be when you grew up?

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Tony Shafar

One thing I wanted to be a professional golfer. I mean that probably I don't know how realistic. I know it probably was never that realistic, but I was always quite a quite enjoyed golf, quite enjoyed playing golf. And I was reasonably I was not bad for quite a young heir in the age, I guess I always and I watched a lot of golf.

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Tony Shafar

There was quite a lot of golf in Scotland, and I used to go to a new open championship quite regularly and I always it was something I always aspired to sort of on as a the envy of those golfers walking, walking beautiful scenery, playing a nice, relaxing game and getting suitably compensated for it. And it was always quite something that would in to be quite aspirational, but I don't think it was ever anything serious.

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Tony Shafar

I wasn't that good in an effort to get that seriously, to really pursue that. It definitely is something that I would have loved to have done.

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Ben Hillman

I won't share my handicap with you because I know that golf is a sport that many can play, but fewer, you know, elite and wondering more. So was it like I think you kind of answered the question there about what drew you to this game as a kid. Was it it was just like that serenity sort of thing that you felt like you saw your professional golfers.

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Tony Shafar

I think. I mean, my dad was very interested in golf and I think, God, massive golf clubs maybe when I was maybe six or seven. So I played I started playing golf. I nearly age. I had reasonably good hand-eye coordination. I took to it relatively easily in comparison to my brother, who didn't have very good hand-eye coordination. And so I struggled with it and I enjoyed playing football.

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Tony Shafar

A lot is well played like, you know. So I just find those quite a nice contrast. One was a bit calmer, whereas football is a bit more fair, a lot more competitive, but also had that team dynamic too, which I enjoyed. They were quite different, but I guess now situation what drew me to, I think it was just playing it from an early age and being able to be outdoors and do do something active which are quite enjoyed.

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Ben Hillman

And do you remember like was there a moment when I know that with most of these things are often like a it happens over a period of time. Was there maybe a moment where like you stopped dreaming as a kid of like those aspirational sort of things and started to become a little bit more real that like, Oh no, I want to go this like business route or this finance route.

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Tony Shafar

Yeah, I'm sure there probably was. I mean, I think probably quite early on I was always probably quite someone who was quite late to certainty and late to almost, you know, way to school. Maybe it was probably my primary school. Definitely. No, But probably midway through my secondary school started to realize the importance of getting good grades and then poor because I was thinking right, if I, you know, in reality, I'm not going to.

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Tony Shafar

And I think probably at that point I'd even stopped to thinking about becoming a professional golfer. But it was like, Right, okay, in three or four years time I want to go to university. And then from that I know that in order to get good job, I need to get a good degree. And I think probably, you know, maybe midway through secondary school, I was probably in that position whereby I started to realize that I would have to work hard.

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Tony Shafar

The subjects I was going to pack would be would be important because it would be if I didn't, I wouldn't get good grades and therefore we'd be able to go to the university. Or did the subject that I want to be able to do it, which would do detrimentally impact my opportunities to get the sort of career, the sort of job that I wanted.

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Tony Shafar

So I think probably relatively new. I don't know, maybe when I was probably maybe 13, 14, 15 to start to, I became less of a dreamer.

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Ben Hillman

It's interesting, especially hearing that it seems like that dreaming has come back a little bit in a very good way, as we'll talk about a little bit later with like your meditation and with just like kind of that mindfulness approach that you take. We'll get into that bill.

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Daniëlle Keeven

And when you were sitting in your seat at Hutchison's Grammar School, where Drew, mindful, were you an attentive student or in your mind Wander.

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Tony Shafar

I think I probably was attentive when I was interested, whereas actually if I wasn't particularly interested, it's a struggle to they'd probably be quite a lot of what you mind wandering. And I'd probably see that in my eldest child as well. I can sort of see some of the things that the, you know, heart. She can be very focused and very knowledgeable, be something she's interested in.

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Tony Shafar

But if she's not interested in that, then she's not interested in then a mind to wander. And I think I was probably quite like.

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Daniëlle Keeven

And it seems like you had a financial focus early on in your career getting a B.A. in accounting and business law from the University of Strathclyde. I'm hoping I'm seeing it right.

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Tony Shafar

The Strathclyde Strathclyde is in Glasgow.

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Daniëlle Keeven

Yeah. And what drove you toward that and subsequently away from golf?

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Tony Shafar

I think it was that point about you know, was a very good it was quite a highly commended business skill and it was the opportunity to have to pursue what I felt would be more, it would be a good business degree, be a good solid foundation to move me in my career. And I believe that Optimizer was sort of seeing trying to map out my career quite early on.

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Tony Shafar

I failed doing a degree in accounting in law, business focused degree would be a good foundation on which to build. If I was wanting to pursue a career in the business world, which which I wish I very much failed, I was.

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Ben Hillman

And do you feel like you talk now you talk a lot about mindset. And I'm wondering if if you picture yourself back then when you were attending Strathclyde, do you feel like you had a good mental approach while you were attending university? Like, did you feel like you had a struggling with the right words to put it? But just like that, that mental model that you talk so much about now, do you feel like that started early on?

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Ben Hillman

Like was there a pivotal moment where that like kicked in?

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Tony Shafar

No, as I am, be honest, I was probably quite oblivious to the mindset back then. I think it was just I thought I was the way I was and I thought and probably had a pretty fixed mindset whereby it wasn't I didn't think I could learn or didn't think I could learn new things. So maybe I didn't have a fixed mindset, but I was probably quite I just wasn't really aware of, you know, my my thinking was my thinking, my inner critic was my inner critic.

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Tony Shafar

The way I thought and approach things was very much the way it was. And I probably I didn't really think, actually, is this helping me or is this hindering me? I was probably not particularly conscious of the power that actually your mind can really house in terms of, you know, holding you back from from what you want to achieve.

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Tony Shafar

I mean, I obviously was conscious of the power of that of being able to learn and having that capacity to learn. But in terms of the more emotional aspects of things and where you maybe were encountering challenges, I would maybe just maybe I would just hold back from pursuing them and wouldn't necessarily really think that much about it unless I actually step back and reflect it.

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Tony Shafar

But I probably then did very little reflection.

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Daniëlle Keeven

There were sort of extracurricular activities. Were you up to while attending?

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Tony Shafar

Strathclyde So I used to did plead quite a lot of goals back then and I played quite a lot of football as playing quite a lot of football. I played football probably three or four times a week, which was great. I mean it was quite good. Kick me out to kick me out and now to sustain a quite enjoyed that the competitive aspect of it.

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Daniëlle Keeven

And did you have a job that you wanted to get right out of college? It looks like you dove headfirst with your role. Grant Thorton It.

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Tony Shafar

Was. I was probably very much following that traditional route that you go to university, you get your degree and it's an accounting and business degree. And naturally the natural progression from that is to go and get a job at a firm of chartered accountants. Well, that was one of the natural routes, and that's the route that I went down.

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Tony Shafar

And I felt that would help me a good foundation in terms of my future career and being becoming a qualified chartered accountant would give me the support. It would be a good grounding, but also it gave me quite a bit of credibility as I pursued my career. And if I want to continue that traditional corporate ladder, as it were.

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Daniëlle Keeven

You feel like you nail your first interview.

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Tony Shafar

I Thorton think I probably I mean, looking back, I can't remember sufficiently, but I think I probably was reasonably confident and tried to approach those things in hopefully quite a conversation like manner. So yeah, I think I don't know whether I knew that, but I think I probably came across as someone who's quite passionate, who wanted to do the work, but at the same token was hopefully slightly curious and intrigued as to what the role would be, as opposed to someone who is purely focused on telling them what I think they want to hear.

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Ben Hillman

And do you feel like so it sounds like this. I think I know the answer to this question, but was this like everything to you at the time? Did you think, like, I have to get this job or like I'm going to be a complete failure?

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Tony Shafar

Yeah, I think that probably was an element of there was probably an element, again, coming back to that certainty that was definitely any of them. And I mean, they were they were pretty big firm and it was a good opportunity and I guess that was that very much I need that certainty of I don't get this job. Then what is the next probably an element of fear to being driven, driven by fear to a certain extent, as I know, secure.

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Tony Shafar

There were just the future and clearly in hindsight, looking back, something else would have arisen. And and who's to see if if I'd gone in a different path that we'd been equally as beneficial? Who knows? But I guess at that time being and then I probably felt, yes, this is really important that I get this, that I secured this job and pursued a good foundation to my career in which I think those things on.

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Ben Hillman

Word or fast forwarding a little bit here, but you've had this very diverse experience in your financial journey, whether it's like starting out in corporate finance, you've worked for a supermarket chain, for a media conglomerate, brand design. Is there one of those jobs that offered like a particularly challenging problem that you had to figure out like, and I'm thinking more in terms of like industry specific problem or something like that.

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Tony Shafar

I learned a lot in my time within the markets in communications where I worked for in the finance direct to within all Goofy, who are a large marketing agency and the way those businesses were run, the finance director, the CFO, was quite a lot of involvement really in the business. It was in there. It was it was it was far more than just someone who would set their own course sources behind spreadsheets and look at the numbers.

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Tony Shafar

And you really had to understand the businesses. And certainly when I first started and we were going through a bit of a recession, I think it was around the time where Lehman Brothers had just collapsed. So there was a lot of and wider economic challenges. We were a lot more to say to them as many businesses were susceptible to this because we were heavily reliant on discretionary space and we were, you know, from our clients a lot of our clients were really holding back and it was having a we when part time and as a result, we had to make cutbacks.

00:15:48:18 - 00:16:19:04

Tony Shafar

Quite early on in my time there. But it was really important to me and it was really I had to quite quickly get a grasp of Right, okay, if we were making cutbacks, what what impact we still needed people to deliver the war and war. And we were very project based. One of the businesses, the first business I was looking after so was very much more challenging because there wasn't as much visibility of income into it as there may be been if we'd be if we had more retainers.

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Tony Shafar

So that became challenging to really understand the business and the intricacies told of what was a brave project but branding agency at the time to really understand right, we're going to cut costs. What's the potential impact if we cut too deeply and the work comes back quickly? And it became quite it became quite clear to me that for a period of time that what we would have to do was with me because we'd have to be reasonably aggressive in our cutting potentially if the work or the opportunity came back to what came back.

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Tony Shafar

We have to adopt some freelance support in the short term to be able to support and be able to resource clients accordingly and that was certainly something I mean, I'd never before my time had never really experienced switching on and off, resourcing the businesses that I'd been involved in had been very much, you know, sole full time employees, whereas actually where you're depended highly dependent on discretionary spend and the income can really vary from one month to another.

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Tony Shafar

Absolutely makes sense to have a bit more flexibility within your core space. But it was something I learned quite early on in my in my time there.

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Ben Hillman

It makes me think of something you said in the CFO 4.0 podcast about how people just want to deal with other people and that mindset of like establishing relationships and going beyond just like the financial, you know, the fiduciary responsibilities and actually having relationships with people because it gets easier to understand what they want and, and that they're more than just, you know, a number on a spreadsheet.

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Ben Hillman

So I'm wondering. So it sounds like that was a very impactful time for you to understand something like that.

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Tony Shafar

It's really important to understand people so that people also feel understood because if you're the finance person and it's like the computer says no, because the numbers just don't work, that might be the right answer. But ultimately, if you wanting to get the best out of people and they don't feel understood and they don't feel that you really get them or you're really listening to them, you might have this gray.

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Tony Shafar

You've got the right answer, but actually you've got a disgruntled member of staff. You've got somebody who's not really wanting to build a relationship with you, and they're going to be happy. Whereas actually the answer may be the same. But if the person feels that you've really taken time to understand their world and really listen to them, they might not like the answer, but they understand the far more and they'll respect you far more.

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Tony Shafar

And that's where that trust and collaboration is really, really gets.

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Daniëlle Keeven

Bell I 100% agree with that. And I'm curious, having stepped out into your current role, how do you look at the industry or look back on the industry or look into the industries you work with how that culture is or is not present?

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Tony Shafar

The culture can be multicultural.

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Daniëlle Keeven

So what I mean is like the people first culture is often something companies aspire to. However, like what you're seeing, like taking people into consideration, even if the answer is no, making them feel heard, that's not something that's very popular in the industry. So how do you what's your perspective on that or how do you lead around that?

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Tony Shafar

I think very often soon a lot of the conversations I have with clients from a coaching perspective is when people are holding back and there may be struggling to have challenging conversations, maybe with staff members, peers or even their CEOs very often they're making out by themselves and they're like, There might be fear that's holding them back. There might be.

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Tony Shafar

I want to avoid conflict. I'm not going to have a difficult conversation. I'm not really going to raise this thing that's frustrating me and that that doesn't that's not great, because ultimately what happens is the build up frustration and they might tell everyone they're all they're all key and they're happy. But ultimately underlying, you can see that they're frustrated.

00:20:04:14 - 00:20:28:12

Tony Shafar

The other person can see they're frustrated. But we often haul back people off and hold back from that because they're thinking about themselves. They want to stick if they want to avoid. They're fearful of having conflict. However, if they can switch around and have a bit more empathy for the other person to try and understand where they're coming from, I may want to have I've got this frustration trying to understand their world a bit more.

00:20:28:16 - 00:20:50:06

Tony Shafar

When you can do that and you make it less about yourself, you're far more likely to open up and have those honest conversations. When people feel listened to and feel that you're genuinely trying to understand them, they're far more likely to reciprocate and they're far more likely to create more of that trust and be have more of an open relationship.

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Ben Hillman

So you think that that's the answer really is just it has to start from the leadership of just being good. I know you've talked about this before, about vulnerability and talking about your failures, because if you're hiding your failures, the people that report to you are just going to get this false perception that, oh, well, you're walking on water over here, you've never had any issues.

00:21:08:16 - 00:21:12:19

Ben Hillman

So just I'm curious about that vulnerability from the leadership position.

00:21:12:19 - 00:21:39:09

Tony Shafar

Absolutely. I mean, it is so true. It's it's the more you can be open about the reality, you know, and it's not about like seeing you feel for the sake of seeing it. It's just being open and honest. And when you've got challenges, when stuff's not worked in the way that you want to be open about, if you've got a difficult situation at work or you're finding it stressful, be open about it, because the more you're open about it, it gives other people permission to be open as well.

00:21:39:09 - 00:21:57:16

Tony Shafar

Whereas actually, if you're finding work straight, if you've got people who you work with, who may be who are in your team and they are finding finding work stressful, they're finding that, you know, it's a pressure environment that they're really struggling with. They might be holding back from seeing that because they're thinking, okay, this is maybe career limiting.

00:21:57:16 - 00:22:15:23

Tony Shafar

If I start being more open about this, I really want to progress my career. I don't want to let anyone know that I can. I'm not up to the task. However, if you start opening all around that all of a sudden allows them to realize that, well, that's okay, we're all human. And actually I don't need to put up this front.

00:22:16:00 - 00:22:35:08

Tony Shafar

I don't need to try and do it and pretend that I'm someone and I'm completely infallible. Why? There's nothing can touch me. Whereas actually we are all human and actually people having those challenges. Not only do you want to encourage I'm not saying you want encourage people to have them. Clearly don't be won't encourage people to be open about them.

00:22:35:08 - 00:23:01:19

Tony Shafar

And the more you do that, the more trust and collaboration that is created and that also, you know, they are far more likely to really be invested in the business because they feel understood, diffuse. Someone's going to have their back when things are being more challenging as opposed to people may be saying, right, you know, they're struggling. The the they feel scared to admit they feel scared to open up and then what may be happens, baby, that's really bad.

00:23:01:19 - 00:23:21:00

Tony Shafar

The bar now or the end up just leaving because they've been scared to have that open and honest conversation. I do think it requires not just leaders to encourage because I think it's more than that. I think the organs need to be need to be loving and almost to be leading by example through doing and being as opposed to just seeing.

00:23:21:00 - 00:23:31:17

Daniëlle Keeven

And is there a time in your career when you've felt insecure about your direction? Like, did you feel at any point before becoming a CFO that you wish you had changed careers?

00:23:31:17 - 00:23:53:14

Tony Shafar

I think probably very often. I mean, I can specifically think of any example, but I suspect that was probably very often an element of imposter syndrome, quite often would come up whereby, you know, there'd be times where I'd be thinking, Right, okay, I've made it three of me through this budget process, right? Yeah, I'm through that or I've made it through that one thing and where I've Yeah.

00:23:54:00 - 00:24:19:12

Tony Shafar

So give I can go, I can move on to the next. So I suspect there was probably quite a lot of imposter syndrome when I was progressing into new roles where I was like maybe going into a board meeting and having conversations with people who were maybe quite a bit older than me, and at almost getting through that and thinking, Right, okay, am I in a position to challenge my do I really know what I'm talking?

00:24:19:12 - 00:24:49:04

Tony Shafar

Are people going to really listen to me need time? This sort of questioning, questioning that. But I guess the more I did that, the more I started to gain in confidence, the less I start to feel like an imposter in certain situations. But yeah, I mean, I think there's probably many instances throughout the years who have absolutely questioned myself, I suspect, but probably not many people who I suspect of, you know, question in yourself, are you really progressing in the way that you want?

00:24:49:04 - 00:25:08:06

Tony Shafar

And it's a wee bit late, you know, that the whole the term that I've just raised is around imposter syndrome. My view is, is no, I mean, although there's a lot of negative connotations around that, I actually don't think it's a bad thing because if you're never feeling like an imposter, if you're never taking yourself out of your comfort zone, then are you really progressing?

00:25:08:12 - 00:25:34:01

Tony Shafar

Now? I'm not saying that everyone wants to progress for me. If I'd never feel like an imposter, it probably got frustrated. I'm not really progressing in my career and fulfilling my potential. But if you're quite ambitious and really want to progress up the career ladder in whatever way that is for you, I think there's always going to be times where you're feeling like an imposter, but it's about where when that comes up, how do you respond?

00:25:34:05 - 00:25:37:05

Daniëlle Keeven

What was it like to finally become CFO?

00:25:37:06 - 00:26:07:14

Tony Shafar

I'll call it like when I was, I suppose my sort of senior first senior job was was financed. Director Roll And when when I was working in the marketing game for a movie, I mean in sales, it felt good. It felt like I had really achieved something quite good in my career. I guess it was probably one of the things that I'd thought about when I started back at university or maybe the on the AM on the career path, qualifying as a chartered accountant, and it definitely felt good.

00:26:07:14 - 00:26:28:10

Tony Shafar

I mean, I was working in an organization, we are really enjoyed it, were really nice people, was quite a support too but I knew was probably an element of ray of goal here. I need to prove that I can deliver on it. So it's like, great, I feel really good. I feel really constant in, I feel I'm pleased with myself, but let's not get too excited.

00:26:28:13 - 00:26:49:23

Tony Shafar

I still get too complacent. I wasn't any complacent. I've got to deliver. I've got to show them that they've made these back to me. They've picked me. I've got to show I don't want to disappoint them. So I think that, that and I think that sort of natural cautiousness, it's quite steps and you have you give yourself an opportunity to celebrate for a period of time.

00:26:49:23 - 00:26:59:21

Tony Shafar

But they naturally coach coaches don't want to get I don't want to get back get to not get too excited about it. But, you know, I just want to make sure that my feet are firmly on the ground.

00:26:59:23 - 00:27:18:08

Ben Hillman

I love what you have to say about imposter syndrome and how, like, it's good, like the good side of it because it's like it's so true that if you're just going to think that you're the best thing since sliced bread, like, are you really going to, like, take any of those risks or like, do do anything, you know, that's going to push the envelope forward?

00:27:18:08 - 00:27:36:05

Ben Hillman

So I love that. I am curious, though, I know in your LinkedIn profile video that you've mentioned that you've learned many mindset challenges yourself, and that's something that like you try and communicate to your clients, whether it's like a lack of confidence, lack of clarity, imposter syndrome, so on and so forth. What are some of those personal experiences you've had?

00:27:36:05 - 00:27:55:11

Ben Hillman

I know you talked about imposter syndrome, but if it's maybe like procrastination or bringing your true self to work, is there something that has happened specifically to you that really resonated? And it was. I'm looking for like more of a negative situation that you felt then shaped you in. How better suited you to be equipped to talk about that yourself?

00:27:55:17 - 00:28:19:00

Tony Shafar

I was I was presenting to some quite senior people and the presentation didn't quite go as well as I had. So I noticed there was a lot, probably a lot of chatter in my mind about what had happened. I was really making it quite a lot about me and I was probably cupping, catastrophizing and thinking, Look, here's a school and I don't I don't get an opportunity to present to those people that often.

00:28:19:00 - 00:28:43:00

Tony Shafar

Is this going to have an impact in my career? And again, coming back to that thing about certainty always being quite definitive about. Right. Okay, well, that wasn't a good result. I remember at the time, like try really, really thinking being very much in my head when I start to reflect Tibetan more, having that realization that actually they probably haven't really thought that, but they have.

00:28:43:02 - 00:29:03:05

Tony Shafar

I've been giving all the year in my mind, but they haven't been giving probably very lecture. We are only in there. They were seeing many people. There is a field of budget presentation or I think it was two or three days of budget presentations and I was on, you know, one of probably 15 different companies that were, you know, was part of a large group.

00:29:03:05 - 00:29:35:04

Tony Shafar

I think realizing that actually it wasn't all about me because we very often get in our minds and realize that all we were making all about ourselves, but actually realizing that it wasn't about me and starting what I was seeing before, but starting to try and empathize more with Och, I think we were a bit short with me and one and one I think our praise and but the presentation I'm specifically talking about it was at the end of the first day and as I see it didn't go quite as well and I think we were a bit shorter in terms of some of the responses.

00:29:35:04 - 00:29:59:11

Tony Shafar

And I went away and I started to reflect a bit more. And just when I started to reflect on and thinking about, okay, why did it, what was coming up for them, what what maybe caused them to respond in a way that I was slightly surprised and I started to try and put myself in their shoes. It just made things seem so much lighter and that's definitely something I would see.

00:29:59:11 - 00:30:23:22

Tony Shafar

Simple, but definitely not easy to do that because it is. You get caught up in situations and you start thinking about right or key in subsequent situations that you can call up and think about, okay, what are the implications? It's not gone the way I wanted. Why they go into and you catastrophize that something in your mind. The more you can make and start to get over your own head and start to think about potentially what are you making it mean?

00:30:24:00 - 00:31:00:12

Tony Shafar

It just for me is definitely something that I really carried forward in my mind. And again, I stole absolutely perfect kind of by any means. It's an ongoing journey, but it definitely when I think about it that way and I know when I have conversations with clients around, I can see sometimes see light bulb moments and I can definitely feel that from the conversations that I have, it makes things feel about that later because it's really about and most instances are really about supporting the business, supporting your boss, supporting the CEO or whatever it is.

00:31:00:12 - 00:31:07:04

Tony Shafar

And actually when you put yourself more in their mind or more in the mind of the business, you're naturally coming out of your own mind.

00:31:07:04 - 00:31:27:23

Daniëlle Keeven

And you don't cheer for coaching in January 2019. Describing yourself as a result, focused executive coach who helps clients push through their fears, insecurities and challenges them to achieve their potential and become the best version of themselves personally and professionally. What spurred the decision to go down that path?

00:31:28:03 - 00:31:55:22

Tony Shafar

I mean, I think it was very much from my time in the corporate world where I had realized that once it gets to a certain level, I'd always been a view the actually progressed up the corporate ladder, and it's all about taking accountability, particularly in finance. It's all about technical ability. And once you get to and I realized actually once you get to a certain level, the technical abilities on this take in is not taken for granted.

00:31:55:22 - 00:32:18:23

Tony Shafar

You see the, you know, CEOs, if you're working alongside CEOs, the chances are they won't really know that much about what you do and how you do that. But it's just taken as that you're going to be able to you're going to be capable, you're going to be competent, and then more. Nicola speak to friends as well. When it gets to that level, the bigger challenge is become how how you show up as a person and how you are.

00:32:19:10 - 00:32:41:15

Tony Shafar

When challenges arise. How you responding to the main obstacles coming your way? Like what are you are you moving back from them? Or actually just adopting more of a growth mindset and seeing? Right? This is an opportunity to learn and grow and not only to start have you become more like solution focused, allows you to actually move forward and accept this situation.

00:32:41:15 - 00:33:03:07

Tony Shafar

It also helps you to establish good relationships with your CEO, for example, because I think that sometimes you know, I'll know sometimes there's going to be many instances where you're not going to have the answer. And actually you see your doesn't necessarily care whether you've got the answer. They just want confidence that you know, that you're going to be able to find the answer.

00:33:03:07 - 00:33:26:16

Tony Shafar

You're going to have some sort of solution. And I think that's where probably a lot of senior finance people might find it more challenging. SDR And I certainly knew I struggled with that, and certainly through conversations I've had with a lot of people is you feel that you have to know all the answers. Someone will see you see or will see something to you in in a confident, authoritative way.

00:33:26:16 - 00:33:44:16

Tony Shafar

Adobe in a way that you're telling yourself, I need to know this when actually you don't need to know or you don't need to know. And there's and, and I think and there's something that I I've heard in the past talking about is like, what are you focused on proving yourself to others? Or you focus more on improving yourself?

00:33:44:16 - 00:34:07:02

Tony Shafar

And there's quite a distinct difference because when we're old, when we're focused very much on proving ourselves, then we're less likely we're only going to be taking on things that we really feel comfortable doing and we know the answer to. Whereas actually, if it's about learning and improving ourself where we were going to be open, we're going to be accepting that we don't necessarily know all the answers.

00:34:07:02 - 00:34:28:11

Tony Shafar

And let's be honest, the higher you get when you get to that senior finance level, you know, going to know all the answers. You just know even although someone might see something in a manner that almost they expect that you well, they probably deep down don't nor they won't know the answers and wouldn't be expecting you to. So I think it's about being able to let go of that.

00:34:28:12 - 00:34:49:10

Daniëlle Keeven

On your website for coaching that com you wrote Spending time with my family is very important to me. Coaching has helped me realize what I really value in life. This includes having a healthy work life balance so that I am there and fully present for my clients, but also able to spend quality time with my family doing the things we love.

00:34:49:12 - 00:35:13:15

Daniëlle Keeven

And a lot of this involves other pursuits, including climbing hills and mountains and participating in different outdoor adventures activities, some of which require me to push through and face my fears. He talked to us about some of the challenges you face on his various outdoor adventure activities. Is there a specific moment that you've felt particularly challenge that was particularly challenging for you?

00:35:13:15 - 00:35:44:02

Tony Shafar

I mean, there's one example that immediately comes to mind as my children quite like climbing and I'm I feel quite comfortable doing like hell climbing and maybe not so steep mountains. I find that quite challenging. But one thing I quite struggle with is heights when I'm quite, you know, on grade level. And we've got I mean, I don't know if it's if you've got something similar in the US called Gluey, which is whereby you just climbing up like obstacle courses where you end up going quite high and you go down wires and things like that.

00:35:44:03 - 00:36:10:00

Tony Shafar

I and we, I was in Horley, we were in Holiday in Greece quite a few years ago and we went to one of those obstacle courses and I didn't really I was like get quite nervous about doing. I thought it was very much taking me out of my comfort zone and I knew that I'd really wanted to do it, but basically I only I got steamrolled into doing it by my children and before I knew it and they told me that we were we were we were doing the catch one.

00:36:10:00 - 00:36:35:00

Tony Shafar

And what happens with this is you get like ten, so you get ten with your harness and one shearer and you can't get out. And quickly I realized, I said, Is this the schedule? And they were like, No, it's not. This is the adults. When we were day, I was quite quickly in my comfort zone, but I knew I didn't have any way back, but it was pretty enjoyable and my wife still laughs at some of the videos of me when I was going across and shaking like that and getting quite nervous.

00:36:35:00 - 00:36:37:22

Tony Shafar

But yeah, that's definitely quite a good example of that.

00:36:37:22 - 00:36:59:21

Daniëlle Keeven

And then the CFO 4.0 podcast, you talked about the story. We tell ourselves that we're not good at something and how the growth mindset is about accepting this, but challenging yourself to try something in order to get better. Is there something that has happened in your life that you approached with this growth mindset where you failed tremendously but learned from the most?

00:36:59:22 - 00:37:27:04

Tony Shafar

When I decided to leave the corporate world, I worked for a technology startup as a CFO for a period, and then I left. And then I started doing consultancy and coaching and not certainly, you know, I was moving from having quite a long career in the corporate world whereby it was very much there was a lot of certainty and there was certainty in what I was doing, but it was also certainty in terms of my income coming in.

00:37:27:04 - 00:37:47:23

Tony Shafar

Whilst at the time this day, you know, I didn't always it was hot, there was quite a lot of pressure and I didn't always enjoy that pressure. There was comfort in the certainty. But when you go and you go and work for yourself, quite a lot of which you're doing something very different, it feels quite scary and it feels quite if you was very different.

00:37:47:23 - 00:38:16:08

Tony Shafar

And certainly it wasn't as if I had loads of clients immediately coming, knocking on my door and I had that immediate certainty. I certainly done. But I think what I realized was that actually it's a long journey. It's a long journey of pursuing this. And actually it's not just a professional journey, it's also a personal journey. And it's about, you know, actually being trying to get to a place where you can almost be truly content actually, and not happy.

00:38:16:08 - 00:38:46:02

Tony Shafar

I'll be happy when because I always have this mentality. I'll be happy when I get the next job. I'll be happy when I achieve this. I'll be happy when I'm earning X amount of money. And that's never really happened. Just and I think probably a lot of people can relate to that. And actually what I've been really working on throughout my journey, working with people, but also, you know, working on myself, is actually trying to realize that the circumstances are not the things that make us happy or not happy.

00:38:46:02 - 00:39:07:19

Tony Shafar

It's our response to them. And that classic like, okay, is our fear. We are as a learning and realizing that, okay, when things when I first started on the coaching and consulting journey, things where the easy and the not always easy, you know, it goes up and down and there's not you don't have that certainty. But realizing the option is a journey you need to embrace.

00:39:07:19 - 00:39:38:00

Tony Shafar

The things are not going well because actually it's easy to be happy when things are going well. But that's not true containment. Whereas actually if you can be grateful and happy irrespective of the way things are, irrespective of the outcomes, then life becomes a little more pleasant. And there's a big wish, which I find incredibly powerful, which really talks about too, which talks to that is called Man's Search for Meaning, and it's by someone called Victor Franco.

00:39:38:00 - 00:39:58:16

Tony Shafar

And it's he is a prisoner of war in Nazi concentration camp. And he basically, you know, all these the incredibly difficult circumstances that very, very few people will be able to relate to. But he took the view that it wasn't the self constantius that would dictate, you know, the the didn't have the could control many things. He couldn't control the way he thought.

00:39:58:16 - 00:40:15:16

Tony Shafar

And his view was that that was the thing that kept him alive. And when you hear about something like that, for me, that's incredibly powerful, that's incredibly inspirational, it's incredibly humbling and really shows that actually it's someone dire. Circumstances like that can do it well. They naturally we all can.

00:40:17:16 - 00:40:34:16

Daniëlle Keeven

Special thanks to Tony for being on the show. You can find them on LinkedIn. If you'd like to see things yourself, remember to leave a five star review if you enjoyed the podcast. We'll see you next time on Beyond the Budget, a podcast from PADDLE Studios dedicated to helping you build better SAS.